The Blues, Queerness, and Black Storytelling: Re-examining Peggy Scott Adams’ 'Bill'

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:00:00

Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel and my.

Jay Ray: 00:00:22

Name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III and Sir Daniel, we're in, we in the tv. You know what that means?

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:00:32

Listen, that means we're going to watch a little something something together. We gotta, we gotta watch an archive. Because kids, back in the days, we used to see this thing.

We used to watch television on these really small boxes that you hear see in front of you. And one of our favorite things to do was to watch music videos back in the day.

Jay Ray: 00:00:52

Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:00:53

And this particular video, J Ray, I gotta say, this song, I really think, I think that the kids could dig this up and revamp it because they're into a lot of what they're calling Southern soul now. And this, I think this song I think fits into that category. So who knows, we might single handedly be bringing back this particular song and artist.

Jay Ray: 00:01:15

Oh, that would be something. So by the way, so who we are talking about, y' all is. We are talking. Well, we're talking about the song, Bill.

It was on Peggy Scott Adams: 1996

Which is very interesting when we get.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:01:47

Into the song, which is an important point.

Jay Ray: 00:01:49

Yes, that is a very important point. But it would also, Sir Daniel, I think the young people today would revamp it like they would definitely want to do something else with it.

Because I do think this is a song like another song we've talked about another man. That is of its time. It is like of its time and. But I think we need to give the folks some context.

So people actually, I think need to see this and hear this. Sure.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:02:22

We're gonna watch it together as a family.

Jay Ray: 00:02:29

So.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:02:29

Because that's what we do around here at Queue Points.

Jay Ray: 00:02:32

That's what we do around here at Queue Points. So why don't we do this, Sir Daniel?

Why don't we go ahead and watch Bill by Peggy Scott Adams and then we will come back, y' all and we will have some discussion. Because I am sure there will be plenty things to talk about.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:02:51

Oh, yes, indeed.

Jay Ray: 00:02:53

So let's check it out.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:02:56

Oh, that was ridiculously delicious.

Jay Ray: 00:03:02

Sir Daniel. You're like, that's my kind of carry it all.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:03:06

I love a little bit of mess. And that was, that was camp. It was the blues, it was R B. And most of all, it was Messy. It was so messy, Jerry. I just remember the.

The uproar that this song caused back in 97. All the morning shows, the radio morning shows, especially the black ones here in Atlanta, had the phone lines lit up.

Jay Ray: 00:03:39

Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:03:39

When it came to Bill, because she said, I was waiting on Betty, Veronica, and Jill.

Jay Ray: 00:03:49

Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:03:50

But I had no idea that I had to deal with Bill.

Jay Ray: 00:03:54

With Bill.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:03:57

Yeah.

Jay Ray: 00:03:58

So it's an interesting moment in time. Right. Songs are about moments in time. This is. And the era of the DL man is emerging. Right. As a conversation point. The Internet is exploding. Right.

So you have different opportunities for folks to meet one another, et cetera, et cetera. Right. Sidebar, Sir Daniel. Remember when you couldn't tell people that you met someone on the Internet? Like, that was like.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:04:34

Oh, yeah. It was so taboo. It was so taboo.

Jay Ray: 00:04:36

It was really taboo. Yes. So this is that era.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:04:40

That era, yeah.

Jay Ray: 00:04:41

And this is also the era the homo thug is emerging in this time frame. So there's a lot of things socially that are happening where sexuality is a lot more visible in a lot of respects.

And so this song comes along and is in the canon, but I want to bring in something. So this is from an interview with Peggy Scott Adams. And here's what Peggy Scott Adams had to say about singing Bill and I.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:05:15

Think a PSA from psa.

Jay Ray: 00:05:17

A PSA from. From psa. You're so good, Sir Daniel.

So she said, quote, I was as shocked as you when my producer at the time, the late Jimmy Lewis, who wrote the song, when he presented it to me, you know, I thought that it was gonna be, like, your typical. The man I loved. And then she was, like, loved another guy. I literally hollered, and Ms. Scott Adams said, I'm not singing this.

No way I'm singing this. But she said, after some consideration, she said, I'll go ahead and do it. But here's what she. She thought as she reflected, she said, once you get.

This is a quote. Once you get past. For me, once you get past the shock of the song, I realized that in the end, the song is really.

It was a homosexual theme, but it's really about deception and being deceived.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:06:31

And.

Jay Ray: 00:06:32

A person who'd experienced deception. So I was like, I understand.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:06:38

Yeah. You know what? Bill falls in line with a. A historical type, a historical genre of song about infidelity. You know, we've had songs about confrontation.

We've had the. The. Barbara. Hello, Shirley. This is Barbara.

Jay Ray: 00:06:59

Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:06:59

Woman to woman. We had those confrontation songs. We've had plenty of songs about Cheating, getting caught, cheating.

Infidelity is just one of those subjects that is, is a human experience across the board. It's one of those things that everybody can relate to. And so for that, the songwriter Mr. Lewis just tapped into it and was like, you know what?

And probably just wanted to tap into the zeitgeist and say, what are people talking about? What's so controversial?

And as you mentioned, you know, at this time in 97, we're getting little glimpses and flashes of different types of relationships, different types of. So like you said, sexual expression in. In especially because this was at the height of the, the tabloid TV.

This is @ the height of your Jerry Springers, your Ricky, your Ricky, Ricky Lakes, you know, and they always had on some type of show dealing with sexuality and sex. And so it, it was just a power move. It was a good power move because it had. They had everybody talking about Bill and his decisions.

But can we get into the video a little bit?

Jay Ray: 00:08:15

Okay. Okay, sir, let's, let's do it. Where you want to start? I have thoughts about this video. Where you want to start?

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:08:24

Okay. I am.

And granted this was: 1997

Jay Ray: 00:08:42

Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:08:43

You know, I just don't think you're gonna have. I mean, yes, there's some relationships that happen, but I don't know, it just is far fetched for a white man to be cast as Bill. To me.

Jay Ray: 00:08:57

Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:08:58

I'm thinking if you really, if this is really like a down home conversation that's happening, happening or something that's happens to some people that, you know, it ain't gonna be no.

Jay Ray: 00:09:08

Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:09:08

It's gonna be a man that looks just like your husband.

Jay Ray: 00:09:11

Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:09:11

And fits in with your family. Because that's, that's really what a lot of women were dealing with.

The fact that black men were, were finding intimacy in relationships with other black men.

Jay Ray: 00:09:24

Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:09:25

So, you know, I just had a little. That's my little two cents on that.

All this casting of white men in these roles, especially when it comes to being the love interests of a primary character which happens to be a black man, just seems lazy. The casting seems lazy and it's also pushing forward. This is probably a white director. I don't know. You know what, Jamie? It also, it just came to me.

Maybe it. Having a white man in the video makes this more palatable. So black people, what do you think?

Jay Ray: 00:10:02

I think, I actually think it plays into the stereotype Kind of the age old stereotype that we have about homosexuality in particular, in that it is something that white people had given or bestowed and brought to black people. I think it more plays into that false narrative. And that's where I think that part.

When I rewatched the video in preparation for our conversation, I had completely forgotten about the context of the video. And then when I saw the white man, I'm like, oh, there's that in here too. Like they're doing the white man as well.

And that's one of the things that I know even if we did, if folks did anything around Bill today, they would have more care of how this was depicted in the music video.

Going to your question about making it more palatable, I do think it's interesting to mention just how popular this song was because Sir Daniel, you might be kind of right. Bill peaked at number 72 on the pop charts, which is a big. Like, it was in. In the Hot 100.

It was number nine on the R and B charts, and it was number one on the blues charts for a long time.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:11:28

Wow.

Jay Ray: 00:11:28

So there might be something to this music video and. And making it more palatable. But, you know, one of the things that wasn't in the music video but is in the song and is. Is a problematic.

So when the song kind of extends out, it talks about the fact that this woman's husband, whose name we don't know, leaves with Bill, but kind of leaves the family. So he's like, tell the kids I love them. And all of that. That's a whole mess.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:12:00

What?

Jay Ray: 00:12:01

Right, right. Tell the kids I love. Tell the kids I love them. So basically I'm like, well, is he not gonna see the children? Like, is he like, gone now?

So I have beef with that. I also have beef, like up until the last couple, the last verse. So this is the last two verses. So that the verse that ended the music video.

I didn't have beef with the song up until it's like, oh, the man was a queen who thought he was a king.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:12:39

Cause you gotta berate him.

Jay Ray: 00:12:41

You have to berate.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:12:42

You gotta berate him. And the women have to walk away feeling, saying something like, girl, you're not just gonna let him do that to you. You got to say something.

So you got to be rate the man. You got to call him a queen, but in a nice way. Because this is still a. A song and blues song, so you're not actually cussing anybody out.

But yeah, songs like this definitely tapped into, I think, a fear that a Black that a lot of black women were feeling. Because like you said at that time, the whole discussion of dlness was coming up.

And, you know, you have popular writers like Terry McMillan sprinkling instances like this in her books.

So there was a heightened awareness among black women, like all the questions that they were asking the men that they were dating at the time, like, well, you live with your mama. Do you have your own job?

Jay Ray: 00:13:48

Right.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:13:48

Are you gay? You know, all those things were starting to come up in the. The collective consciousness of, at the time, women who were on the dating scene.

And I'm, you know, to. I'm sure it had to be hard for them. It had to be scary.

Especially when people are always presenting things in this fashion to you, marketing things to you. They're marketing fear, weren't they, Jerry?

Jay Ray: 00:14:13

They were absolutely marketing marketing fear. And at the same time, telling stories that had. This is somebody's story. And I love that you use that word.

I think where the fear comes in is because queerness in all of its many forms was so quiet and in the dark that people didn't feel like they had to think about it. Right. If a man says that he wants to be with me, I don't have to think about the fact that, oh, he might be bisexual or he might be something other.

Right. Because he's with me. And I think in the 90s, these things that were in the dark are now all of a sudden in the light for us. As the Generation Xers.

Remember, black women were also reading Elin Harris in this time.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:15:13

Yes.

Jay Ray: 00:15:14

Invisible life was now three years old by then. So I'm sure Mr. Jimmy Lewis was hearing about these books that are now emerging where these characters exist and all of this stuff.

So, yeah, I feel like folks were scared and really didn't know what to do about any of this. And it allows songs like Bill to kind of take off.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:15:42

Hmm. Is there. And we teased about it earlier, but is there a way that this song could exist today? Like, would it be. Could it be handled in the same way?

Or would it have. Or would it be more. I don't know. I guess I'm going to answer my own question. I think if.

If an artist were to approach this song, approach this subject matter today, I think I believe the young people today are a little bit more clever. Or maybe this would be a non issue to. No, no, this is still an issue to them because. Because they're. They're still.

People are still making their comments and, you know, queerness is still under attack, and it's it's in very little different ways. You know, you have radio hosts who. Who keep making their snide little comments.

Jay Ray: 00:16:42

They made a pride thing, which is now getting. And people are reposting that. I'm like, weren't we just dragging this woman, like, last week for some foolishness? And now this is, like, celebrated.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:16:56

Yeah, it's weird, but. Yeah. I don't know. I think today's artists may be able to handle something like this with a little bit more finesse.

Jay Ray: 00:17:09

Yeah, I think finesse is the right word. I. Yeah, I think finesse is the right word.

I will say, even with the problems that I have with the music video and the song, I think the storytelling is great. It's great storytelling.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:17:30

Listen, you can't beat black people singing the blues. You cannot beat us when it comes to singing the blues. And the delivery, the look of the video. Yeah, you.

You just can't beat us when it comes to stuff like that. So. Absolutely.

Jay Ray: 00:17:50

bout this, y' all. So this is: 1997

Because when you look at the video, when you look at even the album cover for Help Yourself, like, it feels like a. A generation behind, a couple generations behind. Kind of like what gospel was doing then.

Cause gospel was kind of going through a metamorphosis in this moment, too, because this song came out in 97. And Missy Elliott dropped the, you know, super duper fly in 97. You know what I mean? So we were doing other things in that year.

But this song is Clear, is squarely in kind of classic black blues and R and B storytelling, which is kind of refreshing for the time, so.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:18:43

Right. It's funny you mentioned that. I just thought of the album cover itself.

And the album cover, in comparison to a Missy Elliott Super Duper Fly looked very basic.

Jay Ray: 00:18:56

Yep.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:18:56

And, kids, guess what? There was a time when albums were sold on television. Yes, they would. Especially blues records. And. And some gospel records.

They used to have flashiest commercials where there would be these blues collections. You would hear we go, Wayne Ding Doodle, you know, in the commercial. And all these different blues legends would be featured on these compilations.

Because there were certain labels, like your K Tells and your Rhino Records, that were specializing in still putting together compilations and releasing albums of blues artists at the time. So that' why that album has that look. I'm pretty certain there was a commercial, a1,800 commercial running on television saying you could buy.

Get you a copy of Peg, Scott Adams, if it's not in stores, along with a cover, your favorite Bo Diddley records and Latimore. And so, yeah, we. You gotta. We gotta keep the context, Jay Ray. And I think, yes. I don't know. I kind of miss those days.

I miss seeing those commercials and knowing that for the low price of 9.99, you can order. You can get 50 CDs of your favorite.

Jay Ray: 00:20:14

Listen, let me tell y' all, like, when I used to buy them smooth grooves, that's how I learned about so many classic slow jams. The smooth grooves. It was got up to, like, smooth grooves. I don't know. It was so many of those.

But that, of course, the classic commercial know, my brother, what was it? Was it hey, love?

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:20:37

No, no, my brother, you've got to get your own.

Jay Ray: 00:20:41

Listen. I also. It was something about the. The pureness of those types of things. Right.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:20:50

The days of hearing having a candy liquor commercial on television are done. But I kind of miss those days, Jay Ray.

Jay Ray: 00:20:58

Miss those days. Like, you know, this particular song, it is an interesting moment in time.

Definitely certainly brought awareness to diverse sexual experiences and relationship experiences from folks. Because I do think, going back to the lyrics, as we wrap up, one of. There's a couple of things that I thought were really important.

One, the woman in this said, I don't feel ashamed and I don't take the blame. I thought that was really powerful for her. Good for her.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:21:36

Yes.

Jay Ray: 00:21:37

But also, I thought the conversation that when she asked the man, like, hey, why didn't you, like, tell me that this was a thing? Right. And for him to be able to say, hey, I thought being with you, that it would change. And I'm like, fix. He literally did think it would fix. Yeah.

Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:22:05

That's a whole nother conversation.

Jay Ray: 00:22:07

Yeah. This was Sir Daniel. I'm glad we got to watch this.

For you folks who have tuned in, in audio, you should definitely hop over to Queue Points magazine because you can watch us watch the video, which is super dope. But thank you all for tuning in to QPoints.

If you can see our faces, if you can hear our voices, go ahead and hit the subscribe button wherever you are. Follow us online at Qpoints Pod.

You can visit our website at Qpoints.com, you can check out our archive of shows, visit our magazine at qpoints magazine, where you can check out a whole bunch of content related to our show and shop our store@store.qpoints.com Happy Pride, y' all. We kick it off Pride with Bill.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:22:50

With Bill and another man and everything else. Yeah, my God. Well, listen, like I always say, in this life, you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle, or you can let the record spin.

I am DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: 00:23:04

And my name is Jay Ray.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:23:07

And I'm Bill. And this is Keith. Boys podcast Dropping the needle.

Jay Ray: 00:23:12

You done stole somebody, man. You done broke up a household.

DJ Sir Daniel: 00:23:16

I would never.