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Episode 186

'Another Man', 80's R&B, and Bisexuality in Black Music

In this Pride Month episode DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray are joined by journalist and author Starr Rocque. The trio discuss Barbara Mason's 1984 banger "Another Man" - a song that tackled bisexuality in Black music long before it became a mainstream conversation.

The conversation explores how songs like this, and its later hip-hop connections by Notorious B.I.G. and Nikki D, reflect the experiences people were having but rarely discussing openly. We examine the cultural impact of these narratives, the responsibility of storytelling in music, and why diverse romantic experiences matter in our musical landscape.

Starr Rocque Bio

Starr Rocque is a journalist and author. Her work has been featured by Fast Company, Vibe Magazine, PEOPLE Magazine, Vh1, Essence Magazine, American Urban Radio Networks and more. Her debut novel, "Bloggers Can't Be Trusted" is available on Amazon.

Follow Starr Rocque

Website: http://www.starrrocque.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/starr_rocque

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/starrenerhett/

Email: info@starrene.com

Chapter Markers

00:00 Opening Theme

00:16 Introduction and Hosts' Greetings

01:24 Introducing Guest Starr Rocque

03:34 Discussing 'Another Man' by Barbara Mason

09:37 Discussing the Theme of Cheating and Bisexuality in Black Music

12:33 Exposure to Queerness and Unlearning Biases

13:53 Nuanced Conversations in Music

16:30 Hip Hop and Queer Representation

23:14 Diverse Romantic Experiences in Music

27:20 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

28:51 Outro Theme

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Transcript
Sir Daniel:

Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast.

Sir Daniel:

I'm DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray:

and my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III.

Jay Ray:

And Sir Daniel.

Sir Daniel:

Yo,

Sir Daniel:

I've been itching to

Sir Daniel:

have this conversation.

Sir Daniel:

We've been itching to have this conversation for many.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

And it is time that we dive into a unique.

Jay Ray:

Part of black music culture.

Sir Daniel:

very unique, very.

Sir Daniel:

niche.

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

Very, yeah, very niche.

Sir Daniel:

Because these are very niche songs.

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

And when you hear them,

Sir Daniel:

you almost forget about them.

Sir Daniel:

But then when you hear them, they have such a, Um, they have such a nice groove that you're like, oh yeah, this is, I remember this jam.

Sir Daniel:

And you just start bopping along to it.

Jay Ray:

But we need to talk about these, these, songs because once again, they are unique and interesting stories and it's, it's just, and they.

Jay Ray:

Have taken black culture by storm.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

In their day.

Jay Ray:

And so we're gonna talk about "Another Man" by Barbara Mason.

Jay Ray:

And we have a guest that we have been wanting to appear on Queue Points for a long time to just rap with us from a black woman's perspective exactly about.

Jay Ray:

These songs.

Jay Ray:

So we gonna bring our guest in.

Jay Ray:

But before we do that, we gotta run down the bio.

Jay Ray:

Uh, Starr Rocque is with us.

Jay Ray:

Starr is a journalist and author.

Jay Ray:

Her work has been featured by Fast Company, vibe Magazine, people Magazine, VH one, essence Magazine, American Urban Radio Networks, A URN and more.

Jay Ray:

Her debut novel bloggers can't be trusted.

Jay Ray:

Is available on Amazon Queue Points family.

Jay Ray:

Without further ado, Starr Rocque is in the building.

Jay Ray:

What's up, Starr?

Jay Ray:

What's up, Starr?

Jay Ray:

Look, I.

Jay Ray:

Was, I was for the longest.

Jay Ray:

What's up?

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

Love to get, know how you're who

Jay Ray:

you are.

Sir Daniel:

It is been a minute since we saw you, our IRL, because we all got together.

Sir Daniel:

We got got to see each other in person at the Boombox boombox event this past, well, August.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

Well, August of 20, 24.

Sir Daniel:

And

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

And

Sir Daniel:

so we got to hang out, we got to chill and um, and chop it up a little bit.

Sir Daniel:

And when we were just, we were trying to figure out, hmm, we need a black woman.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

We need a black woman who is versed in music Yes.

Sir Daniel:

who can speak to this.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

Cultural, these cultural phenomenons, because while they are, they are niche songs, they truly hit a nerve.

Sir Daniel:

They struck a nerve in the community, specifically the black community.

Sir Daniel:

So first and foremost, before we go any further, we want to check in with you.

Sir Daniel:

How you feeling, how you doing?

Starr Rocque:

I am doing all right.

Starr Rocque:

Given, given the circumstances, you know, there's only so much you control in your, in your personal life, but you still gotta live in this world, right?

Starr Rocque:

This group project.

Starr Rocque:

Um, so I'm, I'm okay.

Sir Daniel:

I totally get it.

Sir Daniel:

I love that you call life a group project Yes.

Sir Daniel:

Because there's always somebody that's doing the most and there's always somebody that's kind of slacking.

Sir Daniel:

I love that.

Sir Daniel:

I'm gonna have to use that.

Sir Daniel:

So, we are talking about today, Starr as you heard in the intro, we're talking about "Another Man" by Barbara Mason.

Starr Rocque:

And Sir Daniel, it's so funny 'cause you said in the beginning, sometimes you'll hear a song and it's just a bop and you don't really think about the lyrics.

Starr Rocque:

Now let me say, I'm an eighties baby, born in the early eighties.

Starr Rocque:

So you know, the song came out like, I think like 84.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

So I was, I was a little kid.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

At the family barbecue.

Starr Rocque:

Like this was a song that was in rotation.

Starr Rocque:

'cause it was a bop.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Starr Rocque:

And I can't recall anyone ever like.

Starr Rocque:

Not, I can't recall anyone around me making a big deal about it.

Starr Rocque:

People were just going along singing the lyrics.

Starr Rocque:

As a kid, my interpretation of the song was that she meant that if your man cheated on you, then you cheat back.

Starr Rocque:

The, the whole, the bi, the bisexuality of it just went right over my head.

Starr Rocque:

And then when you guys reached out about this, I was like, wait a minute.

Starr Rocque:

"Another Man",

Starr Rocque:

this song Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

to it like, oh, the whole time.

Starr Rocque:

Yes, Yes,

Sir Daniel:

So

Sir Daniel:

I gotta be,

Sir Daniel:

least

Starr Rocque:

from beginning to end.

Sir Daniel:

so, I gotta be transparent.

Sir Daniel:

Like I remember being, I, I, remember hearing "Another Man".

Sir Daniel:

In passing.

Sir Daniel:

But

Sir Daniel:

no, it didn't really stick, but I became re familiar with it when, um, when Notorious BIG sampled it on his, own.

Sir Daniel:

Right.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

on the, was not life after, was it Life after death?

Sir Daniel:

It was life after.

Sir Daniel:

It was the life after after death.

Sir Daniel:

Life

Starr Rocque:

after.

Starr Rocque:

It was life after death.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

Yep.

Sir Daniel:

And it

Sir Daniel:

was a duet with him and Lil Kim call another.

Sir Daniel:

Yep.

Sir Daniel:

And mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

you know, and of course the groove is just so funky.

Sir Daniel:

And then when you go back and you listen, it was like, oh, oh.

Sir Daniel:

She said she, he did what?

Sir Daniel:

I hope he wasn't aware of my, what?

Sir Daniel:

I caught him.

Sir Daniel:

I caught them holding hands.

Sir Daniel:

And so this whole subject matter starts to unfurl when you listen to the original song.

Sir Daniel:

"Another Man" about her.

Sir Daniel:

Um, describing this man that she was once in love with Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

and then picking up on quote unquote feminine mannerisms

Jay Ray:

right?

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

and then catching him on Market Street, which I guess the implication is because she's from Philly

Jay Ray:

Market Well, I mean Market Street.

Jay Ray:

She's so, uh, uh, Barbara Mason is from Philly, so of course this song, uh, was written by Butch Ingram and I think, but is from like Jersey.

Jay Ray:

That's a fun fact about both of these songs.

Jay Ray:

Both of these songs were written by men.

Jay Ray:

Ah.

Jay Ray:

we put

Jay Ray:

that to the side.

Jay Ray:

That was my fun fact.

Jay Ray:

So let's, let's keep that in there when we think, when we talk about these songs, but I didn't think about that.

Jay Ray:

Market Street is just like a main thoroughfare in Philadelphia, so No, it's literally like Broad Street, market Street are like the two streets downtown now said in.

Jay Ray:

84 when this song came out.

Jay Ray:

I don't know what Market Street was given like, so, you know, cities evolve.

Sir Daniel:

Right?

Jay Ray:

But to that point, both of your points, like I remembered.

Jay Ray:

"Another Man" as just like a eighties bop,

Jay Ray:

right?

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

Because the beat was so ubiquitous with the era and also the baseline, the, the synth baseline

Jay Ray:

in a,

Jay Ray:

in "Another Man".

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

It's just kind of one of those base lines that you hear like remnants of like over time, before and after this song.

Jay Ray:

Um.

Jay Ray:

So I didn't really realize the subject matter until the nineties, you know what I mean?

Jay Ray:

Is when I first was like, oh, that's what "Another Man" is about.

Jay Ray:

And yes, later on I picked up, after I got my political hat on and I started doing my own thing.

Jay Ray:

I'm like, and then I picked up on like the language that was being used, and I'm like, oh my goodness, I didn't know.

Jay Ray:

That's what, and so I didn't know how to take it then because with this new lens that I was looking through, I was like, oh, is this song like harmful?

Jay Ray:

But then I'm like, it's storytelling.

Jay Ray:

So I'm curious like y'all, thoughts on Man as like a song, like, you know, however you want to take that.

Jay Ray:

What are your thoughts?

Starr Rocque:

It's a good song.

Starr Rocque:

Yeah.

Starr Rocque:

Like it's drama, you know, black people love a good drama.

Starr Rocque:

It's kind of like the musical version of like some kind of, I don't know, like a, a Tyler Perry movie, for lack of a better way to phrase it.

Starr Rocque:

And I know we could go into how Tyler Perry uses Yes.

Starr Rocque:

Bisexuality and homosexuality in ways that are actually very stereotypical and harmful.

Starr Rocque:

Yes.

Starr Rocque:

But I digress with that for song purposes.

Starr Rocque:

It's a good song, like it's a good dramatic song and.

Starr Rocque:

It's, it's funny because she stole the man from somebody else, right?

Starr Rocque:

So, right.

Starr Rocque:

That it's a drama full event.

Starr Rocque:

And I think that's part of why some of the things, some of the nuances of, of this, of whoever this, this other man is kind of, might go over people's heads.

Starr Rocque:

It's definitely one of those, like, you gotta listen to it again and again.

Starr Rocque:

And like for real, because like I said, I grew up hearing it.

Starr Rocque:

At parties and barbecues and thought nothing of it.

Starr Rocque:

So that's also a marker of a good song, right?

Starr Rocque:

Like you almost get so lost in the rhythm.

Starr Rocque:

You're not even really listening to the lyrics.

Starr Rocque:

But then when you listen to the lyrics, you get what we're doing today, right?

Starr Rocque:

You have conversations like this today.

Starr Rocque:

But yeah, it's kind of like a precursor to like, um, I hate bringing up this man's name, but like a trapped in the closet, right?

Starr Rocque:

Yes.

Starr Rocque:

Like that

Starr Rocque:

whole

Starr Rocque:

like Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

Dramatic series of events.

Starr Rocque:

Like we love a good dramatic song and if it's a bop, that's even better.

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

To

Sir Daniel:

true.

Sir Daniel:

Um, I was, I was thinking about Robert also in that, that whole dramatic theme of, um, the telling a story and a lot of our greatest, um.

Sir Daniel:

Our greatest songs in the Black American Songbook our stories.

Sir Daniel:

They have a narrative and there's a, there's a, a beginning, a middle, and an end, and you know, or it goes onto a part two.

Sir Daniel:

So yes, it's like, okay, we, so we just included that.

Sir Daniel:

It's funky, which makes it even harder to put down.

Sir Daniel:

I just, to your, to your point, Starr, it made me think about how.

Sir Daniel:

um,

Sir Daniel:

A lot of other artists use the theme of cheating mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

and bisexuality.

Sir Daniel:

Uh, specifically bisexuality became like a marketing ploy.

Sir Daniel:

I don't know if you remember in the mid two thousands, there was an author by the name of J King who rose the prominence when, um, he dropped his book.

Sir Daniel:

called on the dl Yes.

Sir Daniel:

and he, was on Yes.

Sir Daniel:

Remember, was an Oprah Winfrey show Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

and it was like a two part series and it was so dramatic in the, you know, um, and, uh, right after that, Terry McMillan famous author.

Sir Daniel:

mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

Um, had, um, that's right.

Sir Daniel:

come to the forefront because her, her then husband, um, came out mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

to her and then they appeared on Oprah.

Sir Daniel:

And then there was this conversation about b about black men, specifically black men, Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

um, Um, living these double lives and how harmful they are to black women.

Sir Daniel:

So it's like, the reason why we wanted to discuss this, to discuss these songs is that the, the songs are, have a, have a, a Alter effect, another effect that we don't talk about and it's the alarming of, of black women consumers.

Sir Daniel:

And then the effect afterwards of this heightened awareness, this heightened, um.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah, the super heightened awareness of the men that are in their lives, and then the almo, and then the harmful behaviors that come after it.

Sir Daniel:

Where we see nowadays, where we have these moments online where we, we have women calling other men, sassy Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

and sassy.

Jay Ray:

Used.

Jay Ray:

to use mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

uh, Zest.

Sir Daniel:

It's weaponized, Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

sassy, and zesty are weaponized for men who don't necessarily do things traditionally or who are.

Sir Daniel:

right.

Sir Daniel:

In touch with, with quote unquote feminine ways Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

or, or feelings.

Sir Daniel:

And so when you think about it Starr and you think about how.

Sir Daniel:

The topic and these songs, and these movies and these books are kind of directed at you as a black woman.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

Do Do you think they are?

Sir Daniel:

Do you think it's harmful, do you think?

Sir Daniel:

Um, especially when it comes to the relationship between black women and black men, um, in general.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

Yeah.

Starr Rocque:

It can be harmful 'cause it's presented in an other kind of way.

Starr Rocque:

It's presented in a way that, um, men should be ashamed for certain feelings or for like, not conforming to what's seen as machismo.

Starr Rocque:

And even for me, like I'm someone who, I feel like I grew up pretty progressive.

Starr Rocque:

I mean, I, I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood.

Starr Rocque:

It was the hood.

Starr Rocque:

I've been a theater kid, theater high school, and so I was around a lot of queerness and queer people.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

So for me it wasn't necessarily such a shock, but now that I'm older and I'm having more conversation, I'm realizing there's still stuff I need to unlearn and that I'm working on unlearning.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

And, um, stereotypically it's like queerness wasn't necessarily.

Starr Rocque:

The spectrum that it is today.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

Back then it was like you were either gay or straight.

Starr Rocque:

Yep.

Starr Rocque:

But now it's, you know, now we're understanding Yeah.

Starr Rocque:

What the different terms are and so, but I, I think I'm a unique black woman in that sense that I was exposed to

Starr Rocque:

people and seeing their humanity and understanding their humanity.

Starr Rocque:

Now I can say, um, and I grew up in New York on top of that.

Starr Rocque:

there's a lot of stuff that we were, that we're taught about queerness that's rooted in religion, that's rooted in white supremacist conditioning that needs to be unlearned and we need to talk about these things.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Starr Rocque:

So.

Starr Rocque:

I, I hope, I don't know if I answered the question.

Starr Rocque:

Um,

Jay Ray:

you did, but

Starr Rocque:

yeah,

Jay Ray:

you did.

Jay Ray:

And, and added, um, I think a layer of nuance that I think is important to consider.

Jay Ray:

So I think what's, what's interesting about "Another Man", Stories that are rooted in a time and place.

Jay Ray:

And I think today we get to have more nuanced conversations, both in formats like this on podcasts, but also in songs like what Sir Daniel talked about earlier with like artists like Doci and being able to kind of like, uh, unlearn some of those things by continuing to have these conversations, acknowledging the fact that "Another Man" is still a bop.

Jay Ray:

And also being able to be like, okay, but I can also view "Another Man" from the prism in which it was created, right?

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

Um, and I think that's one of the things that, um, this kind of, this space gives us an opportunity to do, I think this new space.

Jay Ray:

But no, you definitely answered the question.

Jay Ray:

I know that going into this, one of the interesting things that I, I definitely wanted to highlight, um.

Jay Ray:

Is that both of these songs were written by men, sir. And Sir Daniel, I wanna direct this question to you because what this made me think of is the fact that we saw this in hip hop too, where these vicious disses that women was spit would be written by these dudes, right?

Jay Ray:

So we got these two songs about bisexual men cheat.

Jay Ray:

You know, these, these women with these, these men who are cheating on them with other men written by men.

Jay Ray:

Reflect.

Jay Ray:

I, I don't, I don't know.

Jay Ray:

What are your, what are your thoughts

Sir Daniel:

on this?

Sir Daniel:

I, I don't know.

Sir Daniel:

I guess it, is like, are you, are they living, are they trying to live out their truths vicariously through the, their muses?

Sir Daniel:

You know, it's, it's, it's, it's something to consider and, you know, it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that a songwriter, a specifically a male songwriter would.

Sir Daniel:

Act out or would flesh out, um, themes or stories or experiences that they've had through their music.

Sir Daniel:

So it's not that far of, a far from, of a stretch of an imagination, but I just know.

Sir Daniel:

But like you said, thinking back into the time, the context of time, like it.

Sir Daniel:

it,

Sir Daniel:

It makes sense because you couldn't, you don't, they didn't have much outlets.

Sir Daniel:

There weren't too many people outside of maybe a Sylvester Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

or, I think, and actually think it stopped right there.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

And who,

Sir Daniel:

who,

Sir Daniel:

actually, j Jermaine.

Sir Daniel:

Stewart

Jay Ray:

and,

Jay Ray:

yeah.

Sir Daniel:

But even Jermaine Stewart, you know, his biggest, his biggest hit, he's referring to, you know, female pronouns.

Sir Daniel:

And it's like, Jermaine, okay.

Sir Daniel:

You know, but it, and so yeah, like, so it doesn't.

Sir Daniel:

Surprise me That these, um, male songwriters would do this.

Sir Daniel:

Um, now speaking of hip hop and like you mentioned, the, um, the rappers, um, and the disses that were written by men.

Sir Daniel:

It, I have to throw in here.

Sir Daniel:

Um, I, there's another song by the, um, by the rapper, by the name of Nikki d who was, if you remember, Nikki d was the first female mc signed to the Def Jam label Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

back in like 88, 89, and when her debut album finally dropped, daddy's Little Girl, she also has a song on her album called "Another Man".

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

And it samples the Barbara Mason, "Another Man", and there's no, there's no, um, coins around these lyrics.

Sir Daniel:

She is literally saying, I used, she was reminiscing about a man that she used to date, and this one was even more graphic talking about how, how she would find his underwear and his underwear would have, you know, various.

Sir Daniel:

no, si.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah, the underwear has signs of distress.

Sir Daniel:

I'll put it like that.

Sir Daniel:

And how she, um, and, and funny, fun fact, lady of Rage is on this song, it's Really Quick.

Sir Daniel:

Lady of Rage Oh, okay.

Sir Daniel:

I got her part on the song and it's really quick.

Sir Daniel:

It's like she's just talking to her.

Sir Daniel:

She's like.

Sir Daniel:

He was ripping it at Yes.

Sir Daniel:

And she calls him and she calls her out by race.

Sir Daniel:

But anyway, so the song that was very, uh, when did that come out?

Sir Daniel:

91. So 91.

Sir Daniel:

listening to that song, I was really taken aback.

Sir Daniel:

I was like, oh, whoa.

Sir Daniel:

Like, wow, this is something that is really being discussed.

Sir Daniel:

And I think it was the, the language.

Sir Daniel:

The, the tone of it had a tone of disgust to

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

and so,

Sir Daniel:

but I'm wondering if the disgust was because of the deception.

Sir Daniel:

And there's always, and these always, the songs are always written about the deception.

Sir Daniel:

But I think the greater conversation to have then.

Sir Daniel:

is,

Sir Daniel:

and why aren't we having this greater conversation about why do people feel the need to deceive and to hide?

Jay Ray:

Right?

Sir Daniel:

And so that's,

Jay Ray:

Right.

Sir Daniel:

And so that, And so I think these songs could actually create conversations like we're having now about mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

why people feel the need to hide.

Sir Daniel:

Why do people feel the need to, to deceive and to hide in relationships that didn't, they didn't necessarily.

Sir Daniel:

Want to be in, or they really could want, you know, there's, there's, um, spectrums to sexuality There's role that Yes.

Sir Daniel:

and so there are people who are legit bisexual, Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

and.

Sir Daniel:

What in, in the moment are having, are in a relationship with the person of the opposite gender.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

So, uh, that's how, that's what came to my mind when I heard these songs and, you know, Starr, I just, you know, when you hear things like that and you think about the conversations that amongst black women,

Sir Daniel:

mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

is, is it still steeped in fair or is there any curiosity about talking to men and saying, Hey.

Sir Daniel:

Is it

Sir Daniel:

You, it's okay.

Sir Daniel:

You can do this or can do black women hold the key to making black men feel comfortable in, in sexual expressions.

Starr Rocque:

That's a, Ooh, that's a really good question.

Starr Rocque:

That's a really deep question too.

Starr Rocque:

Um, I think, I don't know if it's just black women

Starr Rocque:

that told the key.

Starr Rocque:

I think because.

Starr Rocque:

So and so from one of the, the layers of this that I'm thinking about, right?

Starr Rocque:

Like as a black woman, you think about how society conditions you to, um, get a man, keep a man.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

If you don't keep that man, you're doing something wrong.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

So as a woman, you find out your man is cheating.

Starr Rocque:

Not, not just cheating, but then he's cheating with another man.

Starr Rocque:

You as a woman can't compete with a man.

Starr Rocque:

So that that's kind of a layer Yeah.

Starr Rocque:

To it.

Starr Rocque:

That could add to some shame from a woman's perspective too.

Starr Rocque:

Like maybe you don't wanna talk about it or tell your friends like, yeah, he's cheating with a man.

Starr Rocque:

If you tell your friends you're cheating with a woman, they're like, all let's go beat.

Starr Rocque:

Beat that bitch.

Starr Rocque:

Whatever.

Starr Rocque:

Right?

Jay Ray:

Then

Starr Rocque:

when,

Sir Daniel:

Where she at?

Starr Rocque:

what do you do better?

Starr Rocque:

Like, which is crazy and.

Starr Rocque:

It's crazy, but a lot of people feel that way.

Starr Rocque:

Right?

Starr Rocque:

Right.

Starr Rocque:

Like, oh, if he's cheating, what do I need to do that?

Starr Rocque:

That's kind of like steeped in that, like that shame.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

Um, I think, um, it starts with, I think there's value in safe spaces.

Starr Rocque:

Uh, like for, for men to have their safe spaces and women to have their safe spaces and the, the eighties and the they, them to have their safe spaces.

Starr Rocque:

Yes.

Starr Rocque:

But at some point we have to be able to come together and, and, and discuss this.

Starr Rocque:

I think.

Starr Rocque:

Black women that hold the key.

Starr Rocque:

But I think if this is one of those group projects Yeah.

Starr Rocque:

That we can come together on and sort of, um, really, uh, push this conversation forward.

Starr Rocque:

Black women do tend to be the drivers of cultural discussion.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

So may maybe, but I know ultimately I feel like this is, this has gotta be a group project.

Jay Ray:

Ooh, So I think one of the things that hindsight gives us the ability to do, and I think I apply this to.

Jay Ray:

"Another Man".

Jay Ray:

Is recognizing, once again, going back to that thing of like, there are a, a, a, a reflection of that time and we have the opportunity with what we know now to kind of reframe the conversation.

Jay Ray:

So it doesn't mean we have to throw away "Another Man", it's just contextualize them.

Jay Ray:

And I love that Mel who.

Jay Ray:

Was the head of West End Records was like, Hey, many years later, I got him to do like a remix of that song.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

To kind of pull out some of the things that were like, eh, you know, I know we did that in 84, but we really shouldn't have done that.

Jay Ray:

So let's kind of like mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

Pull that stuff back and I think.

Jay Ray:

We grow.

Jay Ray:

If people, if we're around long enough, we get the opportunity to grow and evolve.

Jay Ray:

And it's like, okay, yeah, we can change that.

Jay Ray:

We see comedians do it and I think it also can happen in songs, um, with what we learn.

Jay Ray:

So, um, I think they're necessary, but I also think we give people the chance to change.

Starr Rocque:

Agreed.

Starr Rocque:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

Um, why?

Jay Ray:

And I think we may have hit on this, but I think this is kind of a, a good question or something for us to ponder.

Jay Ray:

Why are songs about diverse romantic experiences important for us to hear?

Jay Ray:

What are you, what are y'all feeling?

Sir Daniel:

You can.

Sir Daniel:

go Starr that.

Starr Rocque:

Okay.

Starr Rocque:

Diversity always gives you a different perspective, and that's what's important because that helps empathy building, which we clearly are in a world that needs a lot more of.

Starr Rocque:

Um, so that, that's my main thing.

Starr Rocque:

Um, and sometimes you just get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again.

Starr Rocque:

Sometimes you do want a little bit of.

Starr Rocque:

Spice or something different.

Sir Daniel:

I agree totally.

Sir Daniel:

Um, yeah, it's, um, there's so many stories to be told right Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

there.

Sir Daniel:

We are not a monolithic people, Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

you know, we all have different lived experiences and the thing about music is that music and especially popular music, taps into.

Sir Daniel:

All different facets of humanity.

Sir Daniel:

So why not

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

tap into different, um, expressions of love?

Sir Daniel:

Because most, most songs are about love, are about relationships.

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

And so are we just gonna completely ignore.

Sir Daniel:

You You know, a a, a whole community, a whole section of the human race Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

that also experiences love, heartbreak, Yes.

Sir Daniel:

um, relationships, so on and so forth, joy, pain, all of those things.

Sir Daniel:

So we gotta have 'em if we don't have 'em.

Sir Daniel:

The, if we didn't have these types of songs.

Sir Daniel:

It just wouldn't be as exciting.

Sir Daniel:

Music would not be as exciting.

Sir Daniel:

Uh, I could say as a DJ it wouldn't be as exciting, Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

um, to, to have to play music 'cause everything will be about the same thing.

Sir Daniel:

And then again, you are ignoring a whole, uh, consumer base.

Sir Daniel:

mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

And, and the lives that they're leading.

Sir Daniel:

So, um, yeah, it's important to have these.

Sir Daniel:

And there's, and there's been other songs.

Sir Daniel:

There's been, you know, uh, Katy Perry, I Kissed the girl and, Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

and, um, to Michelle and o Cellos, Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

if that was your man, mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

he wasn't last

Jay Ray:

night.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

So

Sir Daniel:

different songs many different songs and, and, and we all know them and they're hits and they're, we enjoy them, so we gotta have it.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

No, I completely agree.

Jay Ray:

And I think, um, so Butch Ingram, um, when reflecting on the song, uh, Butch wrote the song and produced the song, um, said that, um, people are having these experiences every day.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

And at the time when "Another Man" came out, people just weren't putting it in the song.

Jay Ray:

You know what I mean?

Jay Ray:

Um, and so.

Jay Ray:

The, the beauty about artists being able to reflect, lived experience like in music is just like an important part of learning for I think a lot of folks.

Jay Ray:

Um, and so, yeah, no, I absolutely agree.

Jay Ray:

We have to have these diverse experiences show up in our music.

Jay Ray:

It just makes, it makes it all more listen, it gives us a more, expands our worldview and makes our lives a little bit more, a little bit more interesting, a little bit more spicy.

Jay Ray:

That's why the arts is under attack.

Jay Ray:

That is, you better talk about that Starr.

Jay Ray:

You are absolutely right.

Jay Ray:

Like they don't want us to have these experiences because guess what?

Jay Ray:

People start to open up and they start to learn and they start to experience and me like, oh it, but it doesn't have be this because I heard it in this song.

Jay Ray:

Right?

Jay Ray:

Or I got inspired by this song.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

They don't want that to happen.

Jay Ray:

It's right there.

Jay Ray:

We got lessons in all of this.

Jay Ray:

Right under our noses.

Jay Ray:

Right under our noses.

Jay Ray:

Our freedom is our, we have all, we have given ourselves the blueprints to our freedom.

Jay Ray:

Time and time and time again.

Starr Rocque:

History again.

Starr Rocque:

This is why history is under attack.

Jay Ray:

There It's Starr.

Jay Ray:

Where can folks connect with you?

Jay Ray:

Let our folks know when, when they want connect with Starr Rocque.

Jay Ray:

Where can they connect with you?

Starr Rocque:

You can find me at.

Starr Rocque:

Starr, S-T-A-R-R-R-O-C-Q-U-E.

Starr Rocque:

I was gonna say, I'm like, lemme think about these platforms because I'm like, I'm less, I'm trying to do less and less on social media, but definitely like Blue Sky.

Starr Rocque:

Mm-hmm.

Starr Rocque:

Um, threads for sure.

Starr Rocque:

Instagram.

Starr Rocque:

I'm, I'm, I'm around.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

Cool beans.

Jay Ray:

Listen, we appreciate it so much, and for all of y'all tuning in, if you can see our faces, if you can hear our voices, make sure that you subscribe wherever you are, share the show with your friend.

Jay Ray:

Uh, let them know.

Jay Ray:

'cause if you enjoy Queue Points, chances are they will enjoy Queue Points as well.

Jay Ray:

Make sure that you visit our website at queuepoints.com.

Jay Ray:

You can watch our whole archive of shows.

Jay Ray:

There are a lot of shows that you can watch over there.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

And, um, you can also visit our magazine, our digital publication, Queue Points Mag, where we got some additional content, uh, related to the show.

Jay Ray:

And ne last but not least, shop our store, store dot Queue Points.com.

Jay Ray:

You could get yourself some fresh merch.

Jay Ray:

It helps to keep the lights on here in Queue Points land.

Jay Ray:

We appreciate y'all, we love y'all.

Sir Daniel:

All right, well that's gonna do it for us.

Sir Daniel:

What do I always say in this life?

Sir Daniel:

You have a choice.

Sir Daniel:

You can either pick up the needle or you could let the record play.

Sir Daniel:

I'm DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray:

My name is Jay Ray.

Jay Ray:

That's Starr Rocque.

Jay Ray:

That's

Sir Daniel:

Starr Rocque.

Sir Daniel:

And this is Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history.

Sir Daniel:

We'll see you on the next go round.

Sir Daniel:

Peace.

Jay Ray:

Peace y'all.

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About the Podcast

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Queue Points

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About your hosts

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DJ Sir Daniel

DJ Sir Daniel is a DJ/Selector and part of Atlanta's, all-vinyl crew, Wax Fundamentals. Co-host of the Queue Points podcast, he is an advocate for DJ culture and is passionate about creating atmospheres of inclusivity and jubilation from a Black perspective.

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Jay Ray

Johnnie Ray Kornegay III (Jay Ray) is a podcast consultant and co-host and producer of Queue Points, the Ambie Award-nominated podcast that drops the needle on Black music history. In addition to his duties at Queue Points, he is the Deputy Director of Strategy and Impact for CNP (Counter Narrative Project). A photographer, creative consultant and social commentator, Jay Ray's work is centered around a commitment to telling full and honest stories about communities often ignored.