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Episode 187

Calvin Michaels on K-Pop, Culture, & Capitalism

DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray sit down with musician, dancer, comedian, and YouTuber Calvin Michaels. Together, they discuss the influence of Black music on K-Pop, and what gets lost (or copied) in translation. Calvin shares insights about his creative path, personal projects, and the North Star that drives him as a true multihyphenate.  

From Calvin’s personal journey growing up internationally, to the guys’ critique of the “factory” formula behind much K-Pop, the conversation is playful, smart, and honest.

Calvin Michaels Bio

Calvin Michaels works in many realms of entertainment as a musical producer and creative director. He's also had experience working as a choreographer, stand-up comedian, public speaker, magazine contributor, actor, and choir director. He also has several self-produced studio albums and is a graduate of Howard University.

He recently executive produced the short film "Pull Over So I Can Hit You!". The project is currently showcased at the LA International Shorts Film Festival, Micheaux Film Festival, & Urban Film Festival. This project is an adaption of an episode from his Comedically Hardheaded Podcast.

In addition, he also released his third and fourth self-produced studio albums entitled "Before Tomorrow" and "After Yesterday", available on all digital music platforms.

Calvin Michaels is most known for his YouTube channel that tackles conversations centered on popular culture, politics, music, life and current events. He also served as the director of a nationally top-ranked and critically acclaimed after school program in the Washington DC metropolitan area for 11 years.

Highlights of his creative work and choreography have also been showcased and performed at the Kennedy Center, Howard University, and in the Seattle Metropolitan Area.

Follow Calvin Michaels

Website: https://calvinmichaels.com

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/calvinmichaels

X: https://x.com/gimmieabeat

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gimmieabeat

BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/gimmieabeat.bsky.social

Email: calvinbmichaels@gmail.com

Chapters

00:00 Intro Theme

00:16 Introduction and Greetings

00:38 The K-Pop Controversy

01:05 Introducing Calvin Michaels

01:30 Calvin's Musical Journey

08:15 The Birth of a YouTube Channel

12:19 K-Pop: A Critical Perspective

20:24 The Rise and Fall of K-Pop Groups

21:16 Generational Differences in Music Appreciation

22:29 Cultural Appropriation and Racism in K-Pop

24:07 The Influence of Black Culture on K-Pop

25:59 The Business Model of K-Pop

26:21 The Evolution of Boy Bands

29:04 The Commercialization of Black Music

31:07 The Decline of R&B in the 2000s

35:18 Calvin Michaels' Music and Projects

38:54 Final Thoughts and Farewell

39:52 Closing Theme

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Transcript
Sir Daniel:

Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points.

Sir Daniel:

I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray:

And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government

Jay Ray:

as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III.

Jay Ray:

How you doing, sir Daniel?

Sir Daniel:

I am fantastic.

Sir Daniel:

Happy to be, um, doing another episode of Queue Points podcast, dropping

Sir Daniel:

the needle on black music history.

Sir Daniel:

Now, Jay Ray, we've been wanting to, we've been dancing around this

Sir Daniel:

subject for a minute now, and.

Sir Daniel:

We just, We discovered, um, a young man by the name of Calvin Michaels and he is

Sir Daniel:

a musician in his own right and has his own, a very interesting story of his own.

Sir Daniel:

So we were like.

Sir Daniel:

Let's just kill two birds with one stone and just chat with Mike, chat with Calvin

Sir Daniel:

and see if he could help the uncles out the OGs out with any information.

Sir Daniel:

But Jay Ray, let's introduce our guest to the audience.

Jay Ray:

Absolutely.

Jay Ray:

Y'all, we are so excited

Jay Ray:

to welcome Calvin Michaels to Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

Calvin, welcome to the show.

Jay Ray:

How you doing?

Jay Ray:

Hey.

Calvin Michaels:

Hey guys.

Calvin Michaels:

Happy.

Calvin Michaels:

What?

Calvin Michaels:

What's today?

Calvin Michaels:

Wednesday?

Calvin Michaels:

Happy Wednesday.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Sir Daniel:

It's a blur, it's

Calvin Michaels:

It's, it's a blur.

Calvin Michaels:

We all just making it right.

Jay Ray:

We're

Sir Daniel:

Absolutely.

Sir Daniel:

Calvin, you're, you're, um, you're tuning in, or this is beaming in, I should say,

Sir Daniel:

from chocolate city itself, Washington DC And we, with, as far as music is

Sir Daniel:

concerned, as I just saw something recently, um, that was talking about.

Sir Daniel:

Gogo, I think it's something that came up on my social media feed.

Sir Daniel:

Feed about the power of Gogo and how, of course, you know, Gogo is very

Sir Daniel:

germane to Washington dc but tell us about what influence DC has on

Sir Daniel:

you as a musician and your artistry.

Calvin Michaels:

You know, I'll definitely say, especially when it comes to go, go.

Calvin Michaels:

You really have to be at a live, go-go to really get it.

Calvin Michaels:

Because I'm originally from the other Washington, like Washington State.

Calvin Michaels:

Uh, my parents were military, so we bounced and moved around, but I moved

Calvin Michaels:

here for college and just never left.

Calvin Michaels:

And um, I remember I. When I was first hearing, like, what Go-Go was from

Calvin Michaels:

Washington State, I was being told, oh, just think of like the Rich Harrison stuff

Calvin Michaels:

that he does with Beyonce and Amarie.

Calvin Michaels:

So I was like, oh, okay.

Calvin Michaels:

All right.

Calvin Michaels:

You know, I'm thinking, okay, I'm gonna good to DC it's gonna

Calvin Michaels:

be 21 things on the radio.

Calvin Michaels:

And then, um, when I got here, I remember we were at a club and then they

Calvin Michaels:

started playing like these different tracks, and at first I couldn't

Calvin Michaels:

quite gather what I was experiencing.

Calvin Michaels:

It.

Calvin Michaels:

It wasn't bad or anything, it was just so.

Calvin Michaels:

Different.

Calvin Michaels:

Right?

Calvin Michaels:

Give it two, three weeks later.

Calvin Michaels:

Oh, I was in there and probably knew every word, every song.

Calvin Michaels:

I think what it is is Gogo just has, there's this richness in this raw.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, essence to it, where it, it really is what I say, a genre

Calvin Michaels:

that has never been watered down.

Calvin Michaels:

It's still in its original element.

Calvin Michaels:

And, and even though it's kind of, um, evolved into different forms, 'cause you

Calvin Michaels:

have kind of like your pocket go-go, you have, um, you, you have these different

Calvin Michaels:

versions where there's something that's a bit more energetic, some that's

Calvin Michaels:

real smooth and, and subtle, but it, there's just, when I say it's just an

Calvin Michaels:

unapologetically black genre and it's so representative of not only just.

Calvin Michaels:

The Washington DC area, but just culture here, um, where we are collectively

Calvin Michaels:

in whatever times are taking place in the United States politically, or it

Calvin Michaels:

just, it's a reflection of all of that.

Calvin Michaels:

So as far as it correlating to my sound, um, what I've always appreciated about

Calvin Michaels:

Gogo is that it doesn't matter how old the song is, none of the songs ever sound

Calvin Michaels:

old because it's all live instrumentation.

Calvin Michaels:

And I've noticed with music.

Calvin Michaels:

Songs that are recorded with live instrumentation

Calvin Michaels:

versus samples in, in studio.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, never sound old.

Calvin Michaels:

So if you take like a brand new heavies never stop, which is from 30 years,

Jay Ray:

30 years, 30 plus

Calvin Michaels:

will always sound fresh.

Calvin Michaels:

No matter how many times you put it on, that's go-go.

Calvin Michaels:

I think, and I, I always tell people, you really won't get it until you

Calvin Michaels:

are there and hear it in person.

Calvin Michaels:

'cause it's a different kind of energy.

Calvin Michaels:

It's something that I don't think you can translate the same way

Calvin Michaels:

through speakers, but when you're at one and you just, you just feel it.

Calvin Michaels:

And the people that are around, it's, it's, it, it's, it's like even the

Calvin Michaels:

church I go to is a go-go church.

Calvin Michaels:

Like the song's gotta be, I want some gospel.

Calvin Michaels:

Go-go.

Calvin Michaels:

You gonna sing it right?

Calvin Michaels:

Sing it in

Jay Ray:

hear that, right?

Sir Daniel:

need that in my veins right now.

Sir Daniel:

A little praise and worship with With a, with a pocket.

Sir Daniel:

Oh, tell

Calvin Michaels:

yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's great.

Calvin Michaels:

It's awesome.

Calvin Michaels:

So,

Jay Ray:

Wow.

Jay Ray:

So to that point, so Calvin, you are a musician.

Jay Ray:

You do so many things.

Jay Ray:

True definition, multihyphenate, you're dancing, you're singing, podcasting,

Jay Ray:

commentary, all of those things, right?

Jay Ray:

One, um, how did this start for you?

Jay Ray:

Like what was your entry point into kind of your artistic journey?

Jay Ray:

I'm really curious about that.

Jay Ray:

Um, and when you think about your artistry and what you do, like what

Jay Ray:

do you wanna leave on the world like?

Jay Ray:

So how did you enter and what do you want people to get from it?

Jay Ray:

Yeah,

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah, so like I was saying, because my parents were military,

Calvin Michaels:

we moved a few times and there was a portion when I turned eight when we

Calvin Michaels:

moved to Za Italy, which was cool.

Calvin Michaels:

However, I. This is the nineties.

Calvin Michaels:

This is like 96, 97.

Calvin Michaels:

So, um.

Calvin Michaels:

With that.

Calvin Michaels:

At the time there was no cable on the military base.

Calvin Michaels:

You had one channel called a FN to watch and a FN was American Forces Networks.

Calvin Michaels:

And that was kind of like, they just took the best of what was on

Calvin Michaels:

all the major networks and that was your, your entertainment.

Calvin Michaels:

So we didn't really watch TV because um, it just wasn't a whole lot to choose from.

Calvin Michaels:

So you were outside, you found creative things to do.

Calvin Michaels:

So as far as how, I guess I got in, it probably would've

Calvin Michaels:

been through dance first.

Calvin Michaels:

This lady had just come from America.

Calvin Michaels:

She had Janet's velvet Rope, DVD that she, or not even DVD

Calvin Michaels:

I'm, I'm jumping the gun here.

Calvin Michaels:

VHS that she recorded off the TV when it aired.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and I saw, and mind you, I hadn't really seen at this point, it's like 98.

Calvin Michaels:

I haven't really seen music for two years.

Calvin Michaels:

I, I've heard it, you know, some of the big, big songs in the US with

Calvin Michaels:

Crossover and find Its Way to Europe.

Calvin Michaels:

But a lot of what was happening in America.

Calvin Michaels:

I was out of the loop one, I didn't know who was doing what.

Calvin Michaels:

My brain was calibrated in 96 so that I saw that concert.

Calvin Michaels:

And other than I think Whitney's uh, welcome Home

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Calvin Michaels:

Concert from like 91, that was the only

Calvin Michaels:

concert I remember ever seeing.

Calvin Michaels:

So when I saw that, I.

Calvin Michaels:

Hooked.

Calvin Michaels:

Let me emulate everything I see.

Calvin Michaels:

And then somebody else ended up having Michael Jackson's, um, history one,

Calvin Michaels:

one of them shows they, so I used to watch that in VE Rope just all

Calvin Michaels:

the time and kind of just started teaching myself to kind of dance.

Calvin Michaels:

And then when we moved back to America, we moved to another small

Calvin Michaels:

town called Spanaway, Washington.

Calvin Michaels:

Not a whole lot to do.

Calvin Michaels:

You have nothing to do, but be creative.

Calvin Michaels:

So, um, it, I mean, it's kind of, I feel like everything kind

Calvin Michaels:

of happened at the same time.

Calvin Michaels:

I was also, you know, a kid that grew up in the church,

Calvin Michaels:

so you had to be in the choir.

Calvin Michaels:

And we went to a storefront church, so everybody participates.

Calvin Michaels:

You go, you going to, I was Usher choir and eventually choir director.

Calvin Michaels:

And if they do the Easter play and the Christmas program,

Calvin Michaels:

you gotta be in that too.

Calvin Michaels:

Right?

Calvin Michaels:

So now you, you're doing theater.

Calvin Michaels:

And then I kind of jumped in the theater in, in middle and high school.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, I was on like the actual dance teams in high school, but as far as the YouTube

Calvin Michaels:

channel, as far as me getting a presence, um, I used to teach dance on the side.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and so by the time I got to Howard, I had these different contracts with

Calvin Michaels:

a bunch of different teams, and then I got into Howard and I needed to move

Calvin Michaels:

to dc but I wasn't done with the teams and I'd already signed contracts.

Calvin Michaels:

So what ended up happening is.

Calvin Michaels:

We came to like an A medium 'cause I could just couldn't keep

Calvin Michaels:

flying each weekend to teach.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, I would do the lessons on YouTube with an unlisted link and just send

Calvin Michaels:

my lessons in the choreography and, you know, do these different teams

Calvin Michaels:

and then, you know, I'd fly special occasion when it's competition time.

Calvin Michaels:

And so that's how the YouTube channel initially started.

Calvin Michaels:

So people sometimes will see my challenge, like, oh, he started in oh five, he old.

Calvin Michaels:

I was like, no, I didn't start like the YouTubeing for like

Calvin Michaels:

another handful of years.

Calvin Michaels:

So it started with that.

Calvin Michaels:

After college.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, I graduated at the peak of the recession, so there were no jobs.

Calvin Michaels:

I went right back home, bored to death, and somehow I just randomly was like,

Calvin Michaels:

I think I'm gonna do a comedy show.

Calvin Michaels:

And so I randomly went and did a comedy show and it went really well.

Calvin Michaels:

And then I did like another and another, and I was like, actually, okay.

Calvin Michaels:

So then I started using the YouTube channel to promote my comedy shows.

Calvin Michaels:

I would, you know, showcase that.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, that's all like 20 10, 20 11.

Calvin Michaels:

Fast forward, I. There's this lady named Bethany Storrow, um, who lived

Calvin Michaels:

in Vancouver, Washington, which is a town where there's probably

Calvin Michaels:

about three of us over there.

Calvin Michaels:

And long story short, she claimed that she had been attacked by this black woman who

Calvin Michaels:

threw acid on her face, and she was on the news, whole face, green skin burned off.

Calvin Michaels:

Everything turned out she made it all up.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and it was because she was trying to get the attention of her

Calvin Michaels:

ex-boyfriend, and so she needed a tragedy.

Calvin Michaels:

I'm like, well, why you gotta put us in it?

Jay Ray:

Right?

Jay Ray:

Like how we get in it.

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah.

Calvin Michaels:

So that kind of pulled me into, now I got something I want to say, and

Calvin Michaels:

that's when I started actually making the YouTube videos and talking.

Calvin Michaels:

So I did that for some years.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, then I started just jumping into new projects.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, I did a web series called Generation Black, maybe 10 years ago.

Calvin Michaels:

We did that.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, how we got into the music.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Calvin Michaels:

I, um, had already been meaning to build a recording.

Calvin Michaels:

Pseudo, I've always done music anyway.

Calvin Michaels:

I've always had like a keyboard or something, but I just wanted

Calvin Michaels:

to do it more officially.

Calvin Michaels:

And then, um, I always remember, speaking of Janet, I had tickets to the Unbreakable

Calvin Michaels:

Tour and then that's the one that got postponed 'cause she was pregnant.

Calvin Michaels:

And so the money I had from the.

Calvin Michaels:

Refund from that tour, plus my tax refund.

Calvin Michaels:

I was like, I have enough to build a studio.

Calvin Michaels:

And so I just went to Guitar Center, was like, Hey, I wanna build a studio.

Calvin Michaels:

What do I need?

Calvin Michaels:

And then we kind of played around.

Calvin Michaels:

And before you know it, I had an album and then another album.

Calvin Michaels:

And in between the two albums came to comedically Hard Headed podcast.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, because the YouTube channel was very political and people are like,

Calvin Michaels:

you're funny, but you, you scare us.

Calvin Michaels:

And I'm like, I'm scaring y'all.

Calvin Michaels:

What?

Calvin Michaels:

So that was the podcast.

Calvin Michaels:

I was like, okay.

Calvin Michaels:

So then we launched like, or I'm saying we like there's somebody else here.

Calvin Michaels:

But I launched the Comedically Hardheaded podcast, which was

Calvin Michaels:

like a storytelling podcast.

Calvin Michaels:

So that's all humor.

Calvin Michaels:

We ain't cussing nobody out, it's just all good laugh.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, so I'm trying to wrap this up 'cause I'll talk in circles.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and then from there it's really kind of just built and, and branded.

Calvin Michaels:

We ended up doing a short film 'cause somebody found one of the episodes

Calvin Michaels:

and thought it was hilarious.

Calvin Michaels:

We just did the film festival circuit last year with one of the episodes from that.

Calvin Michaels:

And so that's been that.

Calvin Michaels:

But getting to the question about, um, I guess impact of

Calvin Michaels:

what legacy I would like to make.

Calvin Michaels:

I just wanna live in my purpose, right?

Calvin Michaels:

And I think our purpose, we have that North Star, but there are

Calvin Michaels:

different ways to get there.

Calvin Michaels:

So at this point, I'm taking 15 different routes just to get to that star.

Calvin Michaels:

So some days it's music, some days it's comedy, some days it's the podcast.

Calvin Michaels:

Other days it's a deep dive and I want to talk about, I don't

Calvin Michaels:

know, Motown records or something.

Calvin Michaels:

So that's kinda, um, where it's all at.

Calvin Michaels:

So I do a little bit of everything, but it's.

Calvin Michaels:

You try to find ways to balance it out so you're not, you know, overworked

Calvin Michaels:

and, and, and burnt out tired.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

Wow.

Sir Daniel:

So Calvin, that's a, that's a lot of living packed into your lifetime.

Sir Daniel:

And

Calvin Michaels:

No, I'm just kidding.

Sir Daniel:

no, we're, we're older than you, trust me.

Calvin Michaels:

right.

Sir Daniel:

And that's why, but that's why I find this so fascinating to talk to you

Sir Daniel:

as somebody who is well traveled and who has lived in various parts of the world.

Sir Daniel:

When you come back home and you.

Sir Daniel:

You are an artist yourself.

Sir Daniel:

You sing, you dance.

Sir Daniel:

Um, tell jokes, all the whole nine when you encounter the factory

Sir Daniel:

that is, and it's, it's a factory.

Sir Daniel:

When you encounter the factory that we here in America know as K-Pop.

Jay Ray:

Kpop

Sir Daniel:

Initially, what is your response?

Sir Daniel:

Initially you're like, 'cause we, okay, so we're not strangers to the boy band

Sir Daniel:

formula here in the States, especially.

Jay Ray:

I loved menudo.

Sir Daniel:

You know?

Sir Daniel:

Right.

Sir Daniel:

Especially, but then when we came to the late nineties, you know, we had the

Sir Daniel:

98 degrees, the ncs, the Backstreet, all of those boy groups and the girl

Sir Daniel:

groups, um, being manufactured like by one or two people in the industry.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

So when you encounter it as somebody looking from your

Sir Daniel:

lens, as somebody who's lived here in the States but also lived abroad,

Sir Daniel:

what is your initial reaction to.

Jay Ray:

to the,

Sir Daniel:

I guess to the whole American bandstand of it all, like

Sir Daniel:

of of K-Pop and how everything is manufactured, like what was your initial

Sir Daniel:

reaction when you started seeing them?

Calvin Michaels:

So the first time I remember seeing any K-pop, anything

Calvin Michaels:

would've been the early two thousands.

Calvin Michaels:

So living back in Washington state, there's a really large southeast,

Calvin Michaels:

um, Asian population and Pacific Islander population really huge.

Calvin Michaels:

And so there were additional channels that were tailored to those demographics.

Calvin Michaels:

And so I remember one time.

Calvin Michaels:

Like my best friend at the time we used, we were music dorks.

Calvin Michaels:

We would just sit on the phone and talk music all day to the

Calvin Michaels:

point where other people would be like, yeah, y'all are weird.

Calvin Michaels:

Why are y'all talking about somebody?

Calvin Michaels:

You, you, you naming all the band members from some random tour None of us heard of.

Calvin Michaels:

But anyway, so we would, sometimes,

Jay Ray:

It does.

Jay Ray:

It's how

Calvin Michaels:

we would sometimes just be on the phone and like,

Calvin Michaels:

you, you know, I'm sure y'all did this too back in the day.

Calvin Michaels:

Like you and your friend would watch the same show on tv and so we were like

Calvin Michaels:

flipping channels one day and it, it ended up on one of these like local access.

Calvin Michaels:

Asian channels and they had a segment where they played music videos.

Calvin Michaels:

This is about oh 3 0 4.

Calvin Michaels:

And so I remember we were watching, and I remember the first video I saw, it was by

Calvin Michaels:

this artist named Lexi, I think it's LEXY.

Calvin Michaels:

And she had a song called Girls.

Calvin Michaels:

And when I looked at her, I was like, I. This looks so much like

Calvin Michaels:

Janet's all night, don't stop video.

Calvin Michaels:

Like similar style, similar lighting.

Calvin Michaels:

And I was like, okay.

Calvin Michaels:

Interesting.

Calvin Michaels:

And then like the next video that played was this, this lady named like Lehi Roy.

Calvin Michaels:

And she had this song called One 10 Minute and she has the same jersey

Calvin Michaels:

dress that Maya has on in the um, best of Me Remix video with Jay-Z.

Calvin Michaels:

I was like, what's going on here?

Calvin Michaels:

We, and and we, we were intrigued though.

Calvin Michaels:

I'm not gonna lie.

Calvin Michaels:

Like, it was interesting 'cause it's like.

Calvin Michaels:

We're only teenagers, but you could still tell like, okay, this is

Calvin Michaels:

really like a, an emulation here.

Calvin Michaels:

And so I don't remember the name of the show, but it came on once

Calvin Michaels:

a week and we used to just sit and watch to see all these videos

Calvin Michaels:

and every video that came out.

Calvin Michaels:

It was interesting because it was almost like the imaging they had was

Calvin Michaels:

maybe a few years behind what we were doing at the moment, production wise.

Calvin Michaels:

I take that back, the imaging was matching up, but the

Calvin Michaels:

production was a few years behind.

Calvin Michaels:

It sounded like, you know, maybe 2000, not 2004, 2005 ish.

Calvin Michaels:

And um, so we were just like, okay.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, now I will say, um, in comparison to the now, I think what they were

Calvin Michaels:

doing then was a bit more, um.

Calvin Michaels:

Well-rounded than now.

Calvin Michaels:

I think right now you really do see the evidence of that kind of factory,

Calvin Michaels:

that kind of just throw it all out there because I, I felt like those

Calvin Michaels:

artists that were out in those earlier years that, I think there's one like

Calvin Michaels:

the, there was I think a guy named bi.

Calvin Michaels:

There was, um.

Calvin Michaels:

I'm skipping so many people, uh, I'm forgetting these names, but they all

Calvin Michaels:

had their own kind of personalities.

Calvin Michaels:

What I'm noticing about this current era is I can't tell who's who, and that's

Calvin Michaels:

not to sound like ignorant, but as far as just the distinction between their

Calvin Michaels:

sound, even the imaging and their music videos, the, the music production, the

Calvin Michaels:

choreography, it's like everybody has exactly the same package presentation.

Calvin Michaels:

I mean, it, it's cool visually, I guess.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, but it's not.

Calvin Michaels:

To me, it just feels too calculated and too orchestrated

Calvin Michaels:

and too mechanical I think.

Calvin Michaels:

And, and that's, maybe that's just 'cause I'm a little older

Calvin Michaels:

than the target audience.

Calvin Michaels:

And I do remember when K-POP was not a thing in the United States.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, to the extent that it is now, something has just always felt

Calvin Michaels:

off and I just always think to.

Calvin Michaels:

I wanna say this is the 2018 or 2019 Billboard Music Awards and New Edition

Calvin Michaels:

and new Kids on the Block had a joint performance, and I remember them

Calvin Michaels:

panning to BTS, you know, the big boy band that was really, really big.

Calvin Michaels:

And you know, you've seen their videos, they just da da da.

Calvin Michaels:

But what, what's so interesting is when they were doing Bobby's, um, every

Calvin Michaels:

little step I take in the segment, I noticed BTS was dancing, but they

Calvin Michaels:

weren't on the rhythm to the song.

Calvin Michaels:

And I was like, wait a minute.

Calvin Michaels:

Now y'all can do all this choreography and spit on your head, but y'all

Calvin Michaels:

can't catch the two and the four, I was so confused and then I realized,

Calvin Michaels:

well that's because they're, this is not what they're rooted in.

Calvin Michaels:

This is something, there's a conversation of skilled verse trained.

Calvin Michaels:

Right?

Calvin Michaels:

And so I was like.

Calvin Michaels:

This makes sense.

Calvin Michaels:

This is why like, yeah, they can emulate, but you can tell that a lot of times it's

Calvin Michaels:

not really what they're rooted in now.

Calvin Michaels:

It's made a lot of money.

Calvin Michaels:

It's, I mean, these are acts that are selling out stadiums in the

Calvin Michaels:

US at this point now, but, um, I think there's a specific demographic

Calvin Michaels:

that appreciates it and, you know, that they're able to market to.

Calvin Michaels:

But I think there's an entire another segment that is

Calvin Michaels:

just never gonna be into it.

Calvin Michaels:

And that's kind of where I think a lot of, I'll throw myself in there to be honest.

Calvin Michaels:

Um.

Calvin Michaels:

It's cool.

Calvin Michaels:

It's just, it's not my bread and butter to, to run behind.

Calvin Michaels:

Uh, and I just, I, I don't think they have that full identity of

Calvin Michaels:

what they want to be artistically.

Calvin Michaels:

It's, it's more so the marketing and the branding they have that

Calvin Michaels:

mastered, but the authenticity and the artistry, I don't think is there,

Calvin Michaels:

which is why you see so many these acts just blow up and then disappear.

Calvin Michaels:

and what makes it even crazier now that I think back at it.

Calvin Michaels:

One of the things I remember when we saw those early versions, and mind

Calvin Michaels:

you, K-pop was already out by the time I discovered it, it had been

Calvin Michaels:

been a thing since about the mid nineties, and I'm 10 years late, right?

Calvin Michaels:

I, I specifically remember that Lehigh Roy, just one 10 minute

Calvin Michaels:

video, y'all please go watch that when you get a chance.

Calvin Michaels:

But there's a scene where.

Calvin Michaels:

They're riding with the top down and I guess, what was the Korean hood?

Calvin Michaels:

And then they pan to all the Korean dudes playing basketball.

Calvin Michaels:

And we were like, what?

Jay Ray:

now.

Jay Ray:

Wait a minute now.

Jay Ray:

Now wait a minute.

Calvin Michaels:

and the, this one we were still wearing the va, it was

Calvin Michaels:

like, it was like 20 Allen Iversons in the video, but they were just Korean.

Calvin Michaels:

I said, this is.

Calvin Michaels:

Uh, you just saw, you could tell that, okay, they're trying

Calvin Michaels:

to piece a certain image here.

Calvin Michaels:

'cause, 'cause what part of Korea is this?

Calvin Michaels:

Because, I mean, you would've, the, the way that it was

Calvin Michaels:

presented was like, oh, okay.

Calvin Michaels:

So y'all in Brooklyn.

Calvin Michaels:

Really?

Calvin Michaels:

Okay.

Calvin Michaels:

All right.

Calvin Michaels:

Okay.

Calvin Michaels:

So it, it, it's, um, and, and I, I, I get it because again, black

Calvin Michaels:

music influences everybody and our music is really huge there.

Calvin Michaels:

You know, some of our artists.

Calvin Michaels:

Are huge in places like Japan and Korea and Singapore.

Calvin Michaels:

So it's, it's no secret that the influence is there, but I, it goes back to what

Calvin Michaels:

I was saying about the idea of Rooted.

Calvin Michaels:

So even if you're talking Korean music or, or K-pop, you know, their bread

Calvin Michaels:

and butter before K-pop blew up was Korean folk, which is so left field

Calvin Michaels:

from what is currently out there.

Calvin Michaels:

So again, it's almost like.

Calvin Michaels:

Foundation was never there, but they built their foundation off of

Calvin Michaels:

what was happening in the US in the eighties and the nineties, and so

Calvin Michaels:

that's where their foundation stops.

Calvin Michaels:

But if you're talking about like an r and b artist in the United States,

Calvin Michaels:

even an RB artist, they may be born in 2000 even, you know, their, their, um,

Calvin Michaels:

foundation doesn't stop in the eighties because you know what, even though, you

Calvin Michaels:

know, on Sundays if they had to go to grandma's house, grandma was playing

Calvin Michaels:

seventies in the sixties or wherever.

Calvin Michaels:

And so there's still that element of.

Calvin Michaels:

You know, certain elements of sound being rooted or even if they were a

Calvin Michaels:

family that went to church, you know, those same music theory lessons that

Calvin Michaels:

we indirectly get if you grew up in a church have never really changed.

Calvin Michaels:

And the only difference is now they got a guitar and it's a little bit more

Calvin Michaels:

praise and worship ish versus, um, maybe what we grew up on with the choirs.

Calvin Michaels:

But, um, there's still that essence of, of, of.

Calvin Michaels:

That, that foundation that's still there.

Calvin Michaels:

And I don't think the K-pop acts really have that.

Calvin Michaels:

And all they can do is emulate.

Calvin Michaels:

And I think this is why you're seeing so many cycle in and cycle out because

Calvin Michaels:

just 10 years ago, the the two one group that was the two NE and the

Calvin Michaels:

number one, or maybe they're called 21 with, with a massive, massive

Calvin Michaels:

act like they, they were before

Jay Ray:

even heard.

Jay Ray:

That's crazy.

Jay Ray:

'cause I never even

Calvin Michaels:

They were huge and yeah, they were ma and I and some of it was,

Calvin Michaels:

I used to work with kids, so they're a bit more on the internet than I am,

Calvin Michaels:

so they were finding everything, but I remember they were massive at a point.

Calvin Michaels:

And then, um, it's like they just fell off the face of the earth.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, I'm like, where'd they go?

Calvin Michaels:

And now there's kinda like black pink, which is one that's kind of coddling here.

Calvin Michaels:

They've done Coachella.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and, and there's some acts, and I'm really not trying

Calvin Michaels:

to whack any of these acts.

Calvin Michaels:

Uh, it is just, um.

Calvin Michaels:

It.

Calvin Michaels:

It's, I just, I think it's a generational thing.

Calvin Michaels:

I think if you're of a certain age, you're just never gonna be 100% into it.

Calvin Michaels:

There will be the anomalies, but overall, I just think if you were rooted in an

Calvin Michaels:

era where, you know, Michael, prince, Whitney, Janet, Mariah, were on your tv,

Calvin Michaels:

I'll even throw Madonna in there, or your tv, it's really hard to be impressed by.

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah.

Calvin Michaels:

You know, that's just where I'm at.

Sir Daniel:

So that, so that kind of, it kind of, um, quells

Sir Daniel:

the kind of the fire that I had.

Jay Ray:

had

Sir Daniel:

Initially when we had the initial conversation, it kind of,

Sir Daniel:

this, kind of dulls that a little bit.

Sir Daniel:

It's like, oh, okay.

Sir Daniel:

They're not, they're really all, uh, it's really about consumption and

Sir Daniel:

then just regurgitating what you've consumed because like you said, I,

Sir Daniel:

there's been years I've seen this guy who does nothing but new Jack swing

Sir Daniel:

choreography and he dances to, I think.

Sir Daniel:

Any new Jack swing song that you could ever think of that

Sir Daniel:

was made between 87 and 95.

Sir Daniel:

He's danced to it and they, they specifically love that particular era.

Sir Daniel:

There's, they have this thing for new jack swing, but then I also think

Sir Daniel:

about how we specifically black people are viewed in different cultures

Sir Daniel:

and as your world traveler, um.

Sir Daniel:

Is it, is, is this, is this modern black face?

Sir Daniel:

it, is there, is there like a, a teaspoon of racism in there?

Sir Daniel:

Because we've all seen the pictures of, you know, the, the kids and it's, it's,

Sir Daniel:

it's definitely tied to youth culture.

Sir Daniel:

The kids that are getting, you know, their hair twisted into Bantu knots and, and

Sir Daniel:

trying to create waves out of their hair.

Sir Daniel:

And as you said, the fashions are very.

Sir Daniel:

Early two thousands with the, you know, the, the, the throwbacks and the, the

Sir Daniel:

throwback skirts and all that other stuff, and they're getting their hair, corn,

Sir Daniel:

rowed and all these kinds of things.

Sir Daniel:

So, but is there an actual, and you can't speak for them, but as somebody

Sir Daniel:

who's traveled and has experienced different cultures as a black person

Sir Daniel:

presenting in this world, is it rooted in.

Jay Ray:

in

Sir Daniel:

And is it rooted in appropriation?

Sir Daniel:

Is it making fun of, is it adoration?

Sir Daniel:

How?

Sir Daniel:

How do you feel about it?

Calvin Michaels:

I always say, just imagine you travel there and you walk

Calvin Michaels:

into a room and you see 15 people with the outfits and the hair and the jewelry

Calvin Michaels:

staring at you like you're crazy.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, how do you feel in that moment?

Calvin Michaels:

Do you feel like I. You know, I, I think it's a combination

Calvin Michaels:

of all of it, to be honest.

Calvin Michaels:

I, I really do believe that that community adores what we do.

Calvin Michaels:

I mean, 'cause honestly, I think RB hip hop, new Jack swing, for a lot of them

Calvin Michaels:

that was their introduction to what you would call like Western style music

Calvin Michaels:

as opposed to like the Korean folk.

Calvin Michaels:

So it's, you know, that's their introduction to certain things.

Calvin Michaels:

And I think culturally we've always been emulated, but I think

Calvin Michaels:

where there's a gray area is.

Calvin Michaels:

There is still that element of racism that is there and some of these fan bases are.

Calvin Michaels:

Crazy.

Calvin Michaels:

I, I just see it on social media because a lot of them don't want to

Calvin Michaels:

acknowledge that the entire origin and influence of new, uh, uh, of K-pop comes

Calvin Michaels:

from what black artists were doing.

Calvin Michaels:

That's the main reason why in my new Jack swing deep dive, I opened with

Calvin Michaels:

that, which I got cussed out for.

Calvin Michaels:

'cause the Teddy Riley disciples didn't know where I was going

Calvin Michaels:

with, and I'm like, just keep

Jay Ray:

Just keep why

Calvin Michaels:

They like, what?

Calvin Michaels:

You starting in Korea for Teddy?

Calvin Michaels:

I was like, just, just, just it.

Calvin Michaels:

I summed it up in four minutes, just gimme four minutes to get it out.

Calvin Michaels:

Like, oh man, they were whacking me.

Calvin Michaels:

I'm like, y'all,

Jay Ray:

are like, just keep going.

Jay Ray:

Like, we were impressed.

Jay Ray:

That's how we got here.

Jay Ray:

We're like, no, no, no.

Jay Ray:

Yes, Calvin Michaels.

Calvin Michaels:

were killing me.

Calvin Michaels:

Let me turn this light on.

Calvin Michaels:

Let's get

Jay Ray:

Okay.

Jay Ray:

Rutabaga.

Calvin Michaels:

Okay.

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah, the sun's trying to set on here.

Calvin Michaels:

But anyway, so, um, yeah.

Calvin Michaels:

And so I think, um, I see some element of like.

Calvin Michaels:

To me, there's some element of racism because there, there's

Calvin Michaels:

a lot of anti-blackness in that region of the world as well.

Calvin Michaels:

Right.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and, and even when it comes to certain things like the N word, some

Calvin Michaels:

of 'em have no problem using it.

Calvin Michaels:

And, and, and some of it is, there's not a full understanding of the blacklight

Calvin Michaels:

in the United States, but some do understand it and just don't care.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and so I think.

Calvin Michaels:

It's a weird space because also we now have black American producers

Calvin Michaels:

that are also making their sounds.

Calvin Michaels:

So you have people like Sean Garrett and, and Teddy Riley who, you know,

Calvin Michaels:

give some of them their hits too.

Calvin Michaels:

And I get it.

Calvin Michaels:

There's money to be made.

Calvin Michaels:

And I think with K-Pop, for me, I see it as, as a brand and a business model

Calvin Michaels:

more so than like a, a specific genre of music that's rooted in something.

Calvin Michaels:

If you notice the, the rollouts, it's, it's centered all in branding.

Calvin Michaels:

And how can we get the most commercial gain, um.

Calvin Michaels:

And I think that stems from like what you brought up earlier when

Calvin Michaels:

we talked about the boy bands.

Calvin Michaels:

One of the things that was interesting about living in Italy is, you know,

Calvin Michaels:

we got the Backstreet Boys in NSYNC early, um, Backstreet Boys was out,

Calvin Michaels:

I don't wanna say by the time I got to Italy, they were already a

Calvin Michaels:

thing overseas, um, NSYNC as well.

Calvin Michaels:

And so I remember moving back to the US in 99 and now N Sync

Calvin Michaels:

is promoting, like tearing up my heart and I'm like, this was.

Calvin Michaels:

Two years ago, y'all just now getting this right.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, because they were, some of the acts that actually were marketed specifically

Calvin Michaels:

in Germany blew up in Germany.

Calvin Michaels:

Germany is only a country and a half away from Italy.

Calvin Michaels:

You just go through Switzerland and then we right there.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and so that model of set them up in Europe.

Calvin Michaels:

Model them after Boys to Men, model them after New Edition.

Calvin Michaels:

Teach them how to dance.

Calvin Michaels:

Give them a little bit of extra swag.

Calvin Michaels:

You know, you're gonna get Chris from nsync, who at the

Calvin Michaels:

time, remember he used to

Jay Ray:

He used to have the braids too.

Jay Ray:

Yep.

Calvin Michaels:

Had them braids.

Calvin Michaels:

Put 'em out there and you get like an AJ from Backstreet Boys who has, he doesn't

Calvin Michaels:

have an ambiguous look, but you can tell he got something else in the bloodline.

Calvin Michaels:

So kind of make him look like he's a little bit more spicy than usual,

Calvin Michaels:

and then put them out there and.

Calvin Michaels:

Now they got some eight counts down and now we can package them and

Calvin Michaels:

give them to the United States.

Calvin Michaels:

Like, I think that's almost where the difference is with the boy bands

Calvin Michaels:

versus like the Spice Girls who I think the Spice Girls kind of stayed

Calvin Michaels:

in a, a super bubblegum pop realm.

Calvin Michaels:

But I think the boy bands, there was an effort to really model them after what

Calvin Michaels:

the RB groups were doing at the time.

Calvin Michaels:

Like Spice Girls, I think were still, you know, they were still

Calvin Michaels:

a great group, but I, I didn't see them marketed as, you know.

Calvin Michaels:

Put them in a room and make them do an in Vogue and TLC doing, I think

Calvin Michaels:

Spice Girls somehow were able to kind of carve their own lane, even

Calvin Michaels:

though the influencers are there.

Calvin Michaels:

I never saw them as carbon copies of, uh, and I'm, I'm not saying that

Calvin Michaels:

about nsync, Backstreet Boys, but you, I, I never saw them as, um, they

Calvin Michaels:

were still factory, a factory group.

Calvin Michaels:

They were assembled clearly, but I think it, there was a different, um,

Calvin Michaels:

origin behind their creation, uh, where you have Lou Pearlman who knew

Calvin Michaels:

exactly what he was doing when he.

Calvin Michaels:

And even the ties to, um, ah, the guy

Jay Ray:

Maurice

Calvin Michaels:

Maur Starr did the connection with him and Lou

Calvin Michaels:

promo, like so there was an effort.

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah.

Calvin Michaels:

So, um.

Calvin Michaels:

I think when you jump back to the K-pop conversation, it's the same thing.

Calvin Michaels:

But the only difference is now we just also this, the language barrier.

Calvin Michaels:

'cause a lot of these artists don't speak English either they sing in

Calvin Michaels:

English, they, they don't speak, or they have a very limited scope.

Calvin Michaels:

Or sometimes you'll see these groups that win the award, they'll have the,

Calvin Michaels:

the member that speaks it a little bit better that will do all the talking.

Calvin Michaels:

And then it's interesting 'cause then when you listen to the lyrics and

Calvin Michaels:

they're talking about, I'm so bad.

Calvin Michaels:

I'm so hood.

Calvin Michaels:

Hood.

Calvin Michaels:

Like where?

Jay Ray:

who, who and how.

Jay Ray:

Right?

Jay Ray:

You're just singing things.

Jay Ray:

You know what this is bringing up for me and ooh, this is, this makes me mad.

Jay Ray:

Um, but.

Jay Ray:

We do this every time.

Jay Ray:

It is the, um, incessant commercialization of our culture.

Jay Ray:

Like we saw this in the late eighties where all of a sudden all

Jay Ray:

the black producers was producing on all these white groups, right?

Jay Ray:

And given them bops, right?

Jay Ray:

We got so many bops in the new Jack swing era

Calvin Michaels:

Because Jane Child.

Jay Ray:

Baby

Calvin Michaels:

Don't wanna fall in love.

Jay Ray:

day.

Jay Ray:

We talk about that is a jam.

Jay Ray:

Tara Kemps just wanna hold you tight all day.

Jay Ray:

These are jams, right?

Jay Ray:

But.

Jay Ray:

It is just this, this, this connection to commercialization that will have

Jay Ray:

some of us being like, you know what?

Jay Ray:

No, they, I can absolutely have my song on this group, right?

Jay Ray:

This group who has no connection to your history, no real interest in understanding

Jay Ray:

what it means to be rooted in it.

Jay Ray:

Singing over your stuff and that it's, it's, it's business 1 0 1.

Jay Ray:

It's music industry 1 0 1.

Jay Ray:

I get it, but it.

Jay Ray:

It happens all the time, and I still get mad because it waters everything down.

Jay Ray:

And what happens is then we have to do that so that then we can

Jay Ray:

then sell it back to our folks.

Jay Ray:

So these folks took our thing.

Jay Ray:

Made it this, then we have to do that.

Jay Ray:

Right?

Jay Ray:

Put our stank back on it, give it back.

Jay Ray:

But of course we're gonna do it differently.

Jay Ray:

'cause we done put our stank on it.

Jay Ray:

They're gonna be like, okay, that now.

Jay Ray:

Okay.

Jay Ray:

Do what they're doing.

Jay Ray:

And then it's like this cycle and I'm just like, just, I want it to stop.

Jay Ray:

Stop giving these people your, you know what, I ain't getting in nobody's pockets.

Jay Ray:

If you gonna sell your stuff, do your thing.

Jay Ray:

But it makes me mad.

Jay Ray:

Jay Ra.

Jay Ray:

Be mad.

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah, I, I think it's a combination of that.

Calvin Michaels:

I also do think some of it is the labels as well,

Jay Ray:

Of

Calvin Michaels:

they, and, and I think for producers that are trying

Calvin Michaels:

to get on, I. They want the placement.

Calvin Michaels:

So, um, especially the ones that are hungry and that they, they

Calvin Michaels:

just need that foot in the door.

Calvin Michaels:

It's, you know, it's, it's music business.

Calvin Michaels:

Unfortunately that's, that's the business part, but I, I do think that

Calvin Michaels:

is one of the reasons why r and b music commercially is where it's at

Calvin Michaels:

now because of 20 years of that, where especially our pop artists went a whole

Calvin Michaels:

lot more r and b rooted urban influence.

Calvin Michaels:

I don't like the word urban, but that's what they call us.

Calvin Michaels:

Um.

Calvin Michaels:

Once we got to the late nineties, 'cause I, I always tell people, they always

Calvin Michaels:

think I'm crazy, but when Britney Spears came out, um, I thought she was black

Calvin Michaels:

because I didn't see the music video.

Jay Ray:

hit me baby one more time.

Jay Ray:

Was a whole

Calvin Michaels:

it came on the radio.

Calvin Michaels:

On this, the Italian station was called Disco Rio.

Calvin Michaels:

And like I said, we didn't have access to music videos.

Calvin Michaels:

There was no MTV or nothing.

Calvin Michaels:

And so if you're thinking about white girls and pop pre 96, let's just say

Calvin Michaels:

about 90 to 96, the only main pop.

Calvin Michaels:

That was a woman that was really doing it was Madonna.

Calvin Michaels:

And even then she was at a slowdown at that point, temporarily, and she

Calvin Michaels:

gave us bedtime stories and erotica.

Calvin Michaels:

So she was kind of in a different realm.

Calvin Michaels:

But when you thought of white women in music, you know, you, it is kind

Calvin Michaels:

of like a Leanne Rimes kind of sound.

Calvin Michaels:

There wasn't really this quote, I guess whatever group Fergie was in that when

Calvin Michaels:

they tried so hard and it, it never grew

Sir Daniel:

Oh, wild, wild Orchid,

Calvin Michaels:

wild, wild or, and

Jay Ray:

That's called

Sir Daniel:

all these crazy runs.

Jay Ray:

right?

Calvin Michaels:

it.

Calvin Michaels:

Not to whack them, but no, these folks like, okay, y'all, y'all got a lot.

Calvin Michaels:

But when it came to white girls, there was no association with like

Calvin Michaels:

super funky swagged out music.

Calvin Michaels:

Not since probably Tina Marie, and she was always more r and

Calvin Michaels:

b rooted and was never really

Jay Ray:

She was doing black music, period.

Calvin Michaels:

she passed white people didn't know who she was.

Calvin Michaels:

So.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, so when Baby One More Time came on, I was like, when is this?

Calvin Michaels:

And so I remember getting Back to America and

Jay Ray:

And you saw her

Calvin Michaels:

was out.

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah, sometimes was out.

Calvin Michaels:

And I'm like, I think this is that one girl.

Calvin Michaels:

But remember the now music compilations,

Jay Ray:

Uhhuh.

Jay Ray:

Now that's

Calvin Michaels:

when I got to America it was now two and Baby one more

Calvin Michaels:

Time was in the now Too commercial.

Calvin Michaels:

And that's when I first saw her and I saw this white girl with pictures.

Calvin Michaels:

I was like, what is going on here?

Calvin Michaels:

Like.

Calvin Michaels:

Because, and then I was in denial and I remember seeing her album cover

Calvin Michaels:

and you know, she has the tan, so I

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Calvin Michaels:

She could be like a a, a Mariah kind of,

Jay Ray:

big store.

Calvin Michaels:

I was trying so hard for her to be black.

Jay Ray:

You

Calvin Michaels:

I was like, I know she, she gotta, there's no way.

Calvin Michaels:

She's what I think she is.

Calvin Michaels:

Right.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and so, yeah, but I say all that to say.

Calvin Michaels:

You know, when even when you talk about those pop acts, look at how much

Calvin Michaels:

more r and b rooted they became, um, in the later years, like Backstreet

Calvin Michaels:

Boys started getting used songs like the Call with the Neptunes remix.

Calvin Michaels:

Christina went dirty and she had the song with Lil Kim and, uh, NSY had

Calvin Michaels:

gone and which was on 1 0 6 and park all day and, and, and girlfriend.

Calvin Michaels:

And then that question becomes, well, where did the R and BX go?

Calvin Michaels:

Because now the labels are like, well.

Calvin Michaels:

We could, you know, push Tamia, but we got Christina that can do this.

Sir Daniel:

So you were absolutely right.

Sir Daniel:

Um, I, listen, I think Calvin is like, um, Calvin is definitely

Sir Daniel:

part of the Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

Yes,

Sir Daniel:

Key points, um, family.

Sir Daniel:

There's a fa there's a huge resemblance here in what we've

Sir Daniel:

been discovering and talking about on our, our, um, show as well.

Sir Daniel:

And just, I don't know, I think the conversation then, or it's not even a

Sir Daniel:

conversation for us, but for the general public hearing in the United States, but.

Sir Daniel:

As people who live in this country, who are, who are black men, who are music,

Sir Daniel:

who consume music, you know, we just have these questions and I'm grateful to

Sir Daniel:

have somebody with another perspective to come by and kind of like, well, this is

Sir Daniel:

what, and kind of teach us what happens.

Sir Daniel:

So I appreciate you, Calvin, for joining us on this episode and

Sir Daniel:

kind of enlightening us as to what happens because again, in all of our

Sir Daniel:

discussions and all of our discovery.

Sir Daniel:

Capitalism is really what's at work here.

Sir Daniel:

You have artistry and you have capitalism, and therein the

Sir Daniel:

two shall meet or not meet.

Sir Daniel:

You know, artistry and capitalism tends to win out over everything.

Sir Daniel:

Cash rules, everything.

Sir Daniel:

Around us, basically around.

Sir Daniel:

And so before we wrap up, Calvin, do you have any final words or please let

Sir Daniel:

our audience know about your channel and how they can find you so that

Sir Daniel:

they can be in tune for your next deep dive conversations around the

Sir Daniel:

early two thousands as you alluded to.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

And also real quick, Calvin too, you have, you got, you released two

Jay Ray:

records recently, so, uh, before tomorrow and after yesterday.

Jay Ray:

Definitely let our folks know about your music too, where they can tune into you.

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah, look.

Calvin Michaels:

After that I spent 30 minutes whacking all these artists.

Calvin Michaels:

Now I gotta promote my stuff.

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah, check me out y'all.

Calvin Michaels:

They about this big old hater on here.

Calvin Michaels:

But, um, I was also gonna say too, to your point with the capitalism, that

Calvin Michaels:

was the one part I forgot to add in with K-Pop is that a lot of the acts

Calvin Michaels:

that we see commercially, they've been in these almost k-pop bootcamps

Calvin Michaels:

since they were young teenagers where it, it is pretty much for years.

Calvin Michaels:

They, they go away and they go into these extensive dance

Calvin Michaels:

courses, these extensive singing.

Calvin Michaels:

Trainings and everything else like that.

Calvin Michaels:

Uh, I only made that face 'cause by the time I hear them, everything

Calvin Michaels:

is going through so much EQ and never, you don't know what their

Jay Ray:

You don't know

Calvin Michaels:

but um, yeah, there's no distinction.

Calvin Michaels:

But yeah, they, they spend

Sir Daniel:

too.

Calvin Michaels:

These crazy contracts, they don't really make a lot of money.

Calvin Michaels:

It's making everybody else money.

Calvin Michaels:

And so, um, yeah, they, they do all that and it's, it's centered, again,

Calvin Michaels:

around the conversation of branding and commercialism, making you the

Calvin Michaels:

most perfect polished act that can be presented globally when it's

Calvin Michaels:

time for you to make your arrival.

Calvin Michaels:

So there's that.

Calvin Michaels:

But um, yeah, as far as, um.

Calvin Michaels:

I forgot where I was going with this.

Calvin Michaels:

Oh, my stuff.

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah.

Calvin Michaels:

You can check out my website, Calvin michaels.com.

Calvin Michaels:

That has everything, everything from my music to my podcast, YouTube channel.

Calvin Michaels:

I have a book club.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, whatever's happening with my film projects, uh, as far as my

Calvin Michaels:

music, uh, I released my third and my fourth album a few months

Calvin Michaels:

back, which again, before tomorrow.

Calvin Michaels:

After yesterday.

Calvin Michaels:

It was supposed to be one album, but I realized the songs weren't

Calvin Michaels:

complimenting, and now I was like, these belong on two separate projects.

Jay Ray:

Yeah, because one is like the slow, like more of the the love

Jay Ray:

slow jam, and one is the uptempo.

Jay Ray:

Yeah,

Calvin Michaels:

Other one and yeah, you wanna go spin in your head.

Calvin Michaels:

That's the other one.

Calvin Michaels:

So, uh, yeah.

Calvin Michaels:

And yeah, all my stuff is self-produced and, you know, I sit right in my

Calvin Michaels:

living room, pissed off my neighbors cranking all night, all night, all day.

Calvin Michaels:

They got, you gotta hear, you make a few attempts for certain notes that you're

Calvin Michaels:

trying to see if you still have or not.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, and so yeah, all of that's there.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, I also, my end goal is more so to make music for other artists.

Calvin Michaels:

I like.

Calvin Michaels:

Making my own, but I really would like to start pushing in that direction and

Calvin Michaels:

getting placements with other artists.

Calvin Michaels:

So that's kind of my bailiwick.

Calvin Michaels:

And so yeah, the albums are out.

Calvin Michaels:

I also have two other albums, symphonic Euphoria and the Hardcover.

Calvin Michaels:

Um, one's from 2017.

Calvin Michaels:

One's from 2019.

Calvin Michaels:

I took like a five year break before I came back out musically.

Calvin Michaels:

So, um, yeah, so just check it out if you're into it, if you're not.

Calvin Michaels:

Okay.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

Well, there's so many entry points and thank you so much.

Jay Ray:

Once again, I want to echo everything.

Jay Ray:

Uh, sir Daniel said like, you're definitely one of those folks.

Jay Ray:

True multihyphenate, right?

Jay Ray:

Like there are so many entry points where folks can just grab you If they

Jay Ray:

want the commentary, which y'all should check out, definitely go check out.

Jay Ray:

Calvin's YouTube channel, you get a lot.

Jay Ray:

So you get the music, but you also get the commentary.

Jay Ray:

But then there's all these other things.

Jay Ray:

Like I said, I had the opportunity to listen to the podcast.

Jay Ray:

So you get like the storytelling, the comedy, um, there's of course

Jay Ray:

the music, all of these pieces.

Jay Ray:

So you give the folks, there's a way.

Jay Ray:

For folks to engage with.

Jay Ray:

Calvin Michaels the brand, and you see this knowledge that Calvin is dropping.

Jay Ray:

So just thank you so much for

Calvin Michaels:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Jay Ray:

You're very, very welcome.

Jay Ray:

And so for all of you that are tuning in, thank you all so much

Jay Ray:

for tuning into this episode.

Jay Ray:

If you can see our faces and hear our voices subscribe wherever you are.

Jay Ray:

Make sure that you go over to Calvin Michaels and subscribe

Jay Ray:

to Calvin Michaels as well.

Jay Ray:

You can visit the Queue Points website@Queue Points.com or you can

Jay Ray:

see the archive of all of our episodes.

Jay Ray:

Uh, you can also visit our, uh, magazine Queue Points mag where you

Jay Ray:

can check out some additional content, um, that supplements some of the shows

Jay Ray:

or, uh, compliment some of the shows.

Jay Ray:

So definitely check that out and definitely shop our store

Jay Ray:

too@store.Queue Points.com.

Jay Ray:

We appreciate y'all, we love y'all.

Sir Daniel:

Absolutely another one.

Sir Daniel:

Jay Ray, what do I always say at the end of every episode in

Sir Daniel:

this life, you have a choice.

Sir Daniel:

You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.

Sir Daniel:

I'm DJ Serani.

Jay Ray:

My name is Jay Ray, y'all.

Jay Ray:

That's Calvin Michaels

Sir Daniel:

And this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping

Sir Daniel:

the needle on black music history.

Sir Daniel:

We'll see you on the next go round.

Sir Daniel:

Peace.

Jay Ray:

Peace y'all.

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About the Podcast

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Queue Points

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About your hosts

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DJ Sir Daniel

DJ Sir Daniel is a DJ/Selector and part of Atlanta's, all-vinyl crew, Wax Fundamentals. Co-host of the Queue Points podcast, he is an advocate for DJ culture and is passionate about creating atmospheres of inclusivity and jubilation from a Black perspective.

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Jay Ray

Johnnie Ray Kornegay III (Jay Ray) is a podcast consultant and co-host and producer of Queue Points, the Ambie Award-nominated podcast that drops the needle on Black music history. In addition to his duties at Queue Points, he is the Deputy Director of Strategy and Impact for CNP (Counter Narrative Project). A photographer, creative consultant and social commentator, Jay Ray's work is centered around a commitment to telling full and honest stories about communities often ignored.