Episode 166
Soul Train, Arsenio, and Showtime At the Apollo: How Black TV Revolutionized Music Culture
Join DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray on this episode of Queue Points podcast as they take a nostalgic look at classic TV shows that served as crucial platforms for Black musicians. From the importance of 'Soul Train' and 'The Arsenio Hall Show' to 'Pump It Up' with Dee Barnes and 'Showtime at the Apollo,' the hosts explore how these shows provided much-needed visibility for Black artists. The episode also touches on memorable moments and influential figures from these iconic programs.
Topics: #SoulTrain #ArsenioHall #PumpItUp #DeeBarnes #ApolloTheater #BlackPodcasters #BlackMusic #MusicPodcast
Chapters
00:00 Intro Theme
00:16 Welcome and Nostalgia
00:35 The Struggles of Black Artists on TV
04:44 The Rise of Soul Train
05:10 Soul Train's Cultural Impact
09:40 Late Night TV and Arsenio Hall
13:49 Pump It Up and Dee Barnes
16:41 Showtime at the Apollo
18:42 David Peaston's Journey
22:02 Conclusion and Call to Action
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Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Greetings, and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I'm DJ
Speaker:Sir Daniel. And my name is Jay Ray, y'all, sometimes known by my government
Speaker:as Johnnie Ray Kornegay the third. And, Sir
Speaker:Daniel, I were feeling nostalgic today. This is when
Speaker:we get to talk about what we used to watch when we was young folk.
Speaker:Absolutely. Because we, you know, during one of our conversations and we go
Speaker:off on plenty of tangents, we started thinking, you know what?
Speaker:TV shows dedicated to variety shows. Mhmm.
Speaker:They're far and few in between today. But then we thought about
Speaker:even deeper. There was a time when if you were a black artist, a
Speaker:musician, there was not a lot of places for you to go and
Speaker:be showcased. Yep. So if you're a black,
Speaker:specifically around hip hop, when that came around, if you were a black
Speaker:musician, where else could you go? What could you
Speaker:be seen by the national audience? Well,
Speaker:on this episode of Queue Points, we're going to discuss that. We're going
Speaker:to talk about black artists and the national TV
Speaker:experience and starting off in, like, the from the mid eighties
Speaker:to the early nineties, black musicians had a clear
Speaker:path. Well, prior to that, there was a clear path for them as far
Speaker:as publicity was concerned. Of course, black
Speaker:radio has always been in effect as the is the backbone,
Speaker:and then a lot, of course, publications, black publications,
Speaker:and then you would get artists featured in other publications,
Speaker:national publications as well. Television television was
Speaker:a different thing. Television had a lot of standards
Speaker:Yes. Set by the f FCC. And then, of course, if we're talking
Speaker:about pre civil
Speaker:rights, movement era Oh, yeah. Throughout the civil rights
Speaker:movement era, post Jim Crow, if you
Speaker:were black and seen on television, I'm pretty
Speaker:certain it was a a very, very controlled environment,
Speaker:and especially if you were a performer. Yes. Oh, they weren't
Speaker:good. You had to keep them hips still. Yes. There was no
Speaker:gyrating of the hips. Everything probably had to be from the, from
Speaker:the the waist up, and you had to be very careful about what you were
Speaker:singing about and at how you looked on
Speaker:television programs back then. But,
Speaker:yeah. And so but as we evolved as artists,
Speaker:especially coming along with the, advent of hip hop
Speaker:Mhmm. You know, black people, wanted an
Speaker:edgier look, edgier vibes and sounds,
Speaker:but where were you going to go if you wanted to
Speaker:get on television? Because television, Jay Ray, was
Speaker:king. Yeah. There's no other
Speaker:way around it. It was so
Speaker:in order to get on national TV, there were really
Speaker:only a few places that you can go unless you crossed over
Speaker:and you would have to cross over to a
Speaker:really major degree on the
Speaker:pop charts to really kind of be taken seriously
Speaker:in terms of white specific shows. Now what's interesting is we're
Speaker:talking about national exposure. Right? Yes. There were
Speaker:always regional shows like top of mind. I'm
Speaker:thinking, you know, they're in New York. They had Soul, which was on
Speaker:PBS. It was Ellis Haze Lip, which
Speaker:did feature a lot of black artists in
Speaker:the 19 seventies, but that was not a national show. Right?
Speaker:No. It was an amazing and groundbreaking show, but you
Speaker:kinda had to be in the region to know anything about it. But from
Speaker:a national standpoint, especially in the 19 eighties
Speaker:19 nineties, with the, with the rise of hip
Speaker:hop, there was really just a few places that you can go
Speaker:and even the black shows. So we're gonna talk
Speaker:about a show in a minute. Even the black shows were resisted to hip hop
Speaker:at the beginning. Like, it was not the black
Speaker:shows, the the the major nationally
Speaker:syndicated black show was resistant to hip
Speaker:hop at the beginning because, you know,
Speaker:they came along in those, you know, the late sixties, early
Speaker:seventies, and it was just a different time. So, of course, we're
Speaker:talking about one of the places that if you were a black artist and a
Speaker:place that you can go was Soul Train. Right?
Speaker:Yes. Soul Train started Soul Train was started out locally
Speaker:as you were talking about in Chicago. It was a local show.
Speaker:But then in, October October 2, 1971,
Speaker:went national and became syndicated in
Speaker:every household across the country. Let's just sit with that for a
Speaker:moment and imagine being a young black
Speaker:person and turning on the television and seeing
Speaker:everybody looking like you, just
Speaker:bopping and having a good time. And when I see those clips online, Jay
Speaker:Ray, I have to real quick. When I see those clips online and say, I
Speaker:just love how that everybody was bopping in in sync,
Speaker:especially when, like, BT Express came on, do it to to your satisfied.
Speaker:Everybody was like, you know, moving in syndication.
Speaker:And it's it's those things that just stand out to me up and how
Speaker:beautiful, Soul Train, looked
Speaker:aesthetically. They had all the black commercials Yeah. Like, you
Speaker:know, Afro Sheen. Afro Sheen. Why do we all think of Afro Sheen first?
Speaker:It's always Afro Sheen, and it makes you look like Cleopatra. You know,
Speaker:all the things that we love, that we needed in,
Speaker:as consumers as well back in the day. But you're
Speaker:right. You know, imagine coming up in the sixties seventies, you know, Don
Speaker:Cornelius is very suited and strict. And here come
Speaker:these hip hoppers. These these hippity hops with their
Speaker:Hippity hoppers. Sneakers and chains.
Speaker:And and, and god bless them, Don Cornelius
Speaker:interviewing rappers was always the funniest thing. So
Speaker:mister Cool Mo d with the very long
Speaker:microphone, mister Cool Mo d. What does the Mo d
Speaker:mean? You know, I'm I'm being facetious, but it was very
Speaker:you could tell there was a a disconnect between Don Cornelius
Speaker:and the uprising culture of hip hop. Yeah. But
Speaker:we still had a place to go. Yes. It was still
Speaker:an important place for someone on the come up to stop
Speaker:at Soul Train because Soul Train Soul Train is
Speaker:just a part of black culture, and you have to go there.
Speaker:You have to be a part of that show. It's a part of your your
Speaker:journey as an artist. The black artist is to be on Soul Train.
Speaker:Mhmm. Yeah. Soul Train. I mean, Soul Train ran
Speaker:for so long. It's crazy to thank y'all. Shamar Moore was a
Speaker:host of Soul Train for, like, a long time. Shamar You're
Speaker:trying to forget that, especially when he was dancing. He was
Speaker:shabar Moore, who's always on your TV sets,
Speaker:weekly, hostess Soul Train for a long time at the same time that
Speaker:he was on, like, the young and the restless or one of the or the
Speaker:bold and the beautiful, whatever. But it's where we had to
Speaker:go. And, such an important and
Speaker:iconic show. So we definitely wanted to lift that
Speaker:up. But now so to that point. So Soul
Speaker:Train for me, Sir Daniel, I'm curious for
Speaker:you in New York and, in the Atlanta area. For me,
Speaker:Soul Train came on on Saturdays, so I got to see
Speaker:it after cartoons. So it would typically be, like,
Speaker:whenever cartoons ended. So either 11 or 12
Speaker:before the kung fu Saturday, we would get
Speaker:an hour of Soul Train. When did Soul Train come on for you?
Speaker:So, as I've told you all on this podcast before, you know, I grew up
Speaker:7th day Adventist. Oh, that's right.
Speaker:So I was always yanked to church on Saturday
Speaker:morning, except for the the few times that
Speaker:that I got to stay home or I played sick and got to stay
Speaker:home, and I would have to sneak and
Speaker:turn on the television to see the cartoons like you were just saying Mhmm.
Speaker:And to catch Soul Train. But you're absolutely right. I think it was the same.
Speaker:The the the timing was around the same. Okay. The format
Speaker:came like, you came on around noon after the cartoons.
Speaker:So yeah. Because well, we're in the tristate area. Yeah. So I don't
Speaker:think it was that different from where you were in Pennsylvania.
Speaker:But, yeah, that's around the same time that it came on. But,
Speaker:man, stealing those moments to see Soul Train
Speaker:and by that time to see whoever the guest host would be Mhmm.
Speaker:Because like you said, you had your Shamar Moores. You had your Tashina Arnolds.
Speaker:Yeah. And whoever was popping at the time would be a guest host
Speaker:on Soul Train. So Soul Train did a great job of passing
Speaker:down the baton when it came to having
Speaker:hosts and people being a part of the show. And
Speaker:Soul Train was a a midday type of thing. Right? Yes. It was a daytime
Speaker:type of show, but nighttime television
Speaker:was also popping. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Television was
Speaker:you know, back in the day, you had your Dick Cavett. Of course, you had
Speaker:Johnny Carson, who was the GOAT. Yes.
Speaker:And what's the other the other comedian? The
Speaker:Chin. Who? David Letterman? David let well, David Letterman
Speaker:and the one he was, feuding with was going up against. Who
Speaker:was he going up against? Uh-huh. We talked about Conan. Jay Leno.
Speaker:Jay Leno. Jay Leno. Who took over actually, he took over The Tonight Show from,
Speaker:Johnny Carson. Yeah. Exactly. So you know who else
Speaker:who did a guest stint on The Carson Show?
Speaker:Arsenio.
Speaker:Man, you wanna talk about comic. You wanna talk about
Speaker:the most important night
Speaker:time show. I feel like in TV
Speaker:history, there was nothing
Speaker:like the Arsenio Hall show in the late eighties and the
Speaker:early nineties, and shout out to our folks. They reminisce over
Speaker:you. They do a great show about the history of the Arsenio Hall show. Go
Speaker:check that out. But that show, Sir Daniel,
Speaker:late night, that is where you wanted to be. That was the
Speaker:coolest show on TV. That was the ticket.
Speaker:I mean, Arsenio had it was Arsenio and he had
Speaker:the posse. The posse? Were you David Owen?
Speaker:And he had Arsenio became, he became
Speaker:larger than life to us specifically because we saw that's
Speaker:one of the first places that we saw hip hop Yes.
Speaker:Being celebrated, not just, you know,
Speaker:here's this group, they've got a hit on the charts,
Speaker:such and such, you know, a rap group. Arsenio
Speaker:knows of the culture, is of the culture, and would have them
Speaker:on, and then would also talk to them, would have the artists speak to
Speaker:them. After the show, they would have an interview session,
Speaker:which a lot of artists didn't get. They just came and performed, and then that
Speaker:was it. But on Arsenio, you got to sit on the couch with him.
Speaker:You got to chop chop it up with him. You felt safe with him there.
Speaker:I keep going back to this moment, in a tribe called Quest
Speaker:History Mhmm. Where they went on the show and performed,
Speaker:and, a audience member, some white dude, got up and was,
Speaker:like, putting his thumbs down and booing them during their performance because
Speaker:they were sampling that, this was when they would do a performing,
Speaker:Can I Kick It? At the time, they were going through some litigation with Lou
Speaker:Reed, who's the original song, it's called Walk on the Wild Side Mhmm.
Speaker:That Can I Kick It samples? And, you know, some guy was in the audience
Speaker:being vocal about and being disrespectful. Arsenio
Speaker:stopped the music, called the man out and
Speaker:and blessed him in front of everybody and was like, how dare you?
Speaker:These are some kids, some talented kids. They've got a hit record
Speaker:and we're gonna respect them. Yes. Arsenio had so
Speaker:much respect from all of us at that time. He was respectful
Speaker:of the he showed love to the east, and he showed love to the West
Speaker:Coast because the show was, filmed right there on the West Coast. So a lot
Speaker:of Cali rappers, got a lot of exposure on
Speaker:Arsenio Hall show. Jerry, do you remember when Arsenio dropped his
Speaker:own rap record? Oh, was that the chunky a?
Speaker:Chunky. Wow. That just flew
Speaker:back. The parody record. The parody
Speaker:songs. What was the one? Dang. He chunky
Speaker:but funky. I think that was the name of the album. Right?
Speaker:Yeah. That Arsenio, yeah, he played in our face a little bit
Speaker:with that one, but he's still he's still a legend and
Speaker:still created a platform for
Speaker:black musicianship. Yeah. In the late eighties
Speaker:throughout the nineties, that show premiered January 3,
Speaker:1989. Yeah. And it went on till 1994.
Speaker:Yeah. Abruptly, of course, off the air, but shout out
Speaker:to that was definitely a place from a national standpoint that you
Speaker:could get some exposure. And this next show
Speaker:that we wanted to talk about does not get brought up enough in these
Speaker:conversations and it deserves to. For sure. Because
Speaker:we owe Dee Barnes so much
Speaker:for what she did for the culture, and
Speaker:the fact that she gave us pump it up. So I remember being able to
Speaker:check out pump it up, which is a national,
Speaker:show. So we're talking about shows that were on network TV too. I wanna be
Speaker:clear because some people might be like, but there was yo. Yo was on cable.
Speaker:Yes. So back everybody didn't have luxury. Cable was a
Speaker:luxury. Everybody didn't have cable. So if you needed
Speaker:to, from a national standpoint, to get some exposure, you wanted to show that was
Speaker:on network television. Right? So I got to the opportunity to
Speaker:see Pump It Up. It was on Fox, at the time,
Speaker:when I was young. And I remember being able to
Speaker:stay up late. Now I did have access to cable,
Speaker:but I stayed up late still on a Saturday night
Speaker:specifically. I think it came on before
Speaker:Saturday night live where I was or was like right while Saturday night
Speaker:live was happening. But anyway, I got a chance to catch Pump It Up,
Speaker:on Fox, and, I got a chance to see
Speaker:artists because it was taped in LA. It was a very LA centric
Speaker:show. I got to be introduced to artists out there that I had never been
Speaker:introduced to before. I remember swaying King Tech
Speaker:would play on there. So I got a chance to be introduced to artists like
Speaker:that that I would never know. And King t Pump It
Speaker:Up was a place where you could go and Dee would talk to you. She
Speaker:was from hip hop. She would talk to you like hip hop and
Speaker:really give you a solid interview, but also show music videos. So
Speaker:that was a dope spot for me to be able to see artists.
Speaker:Yeah. I specifically appreciate how
Speaker:she did like, they did this kind of gorilla form
Speaker:of recording where they would be out on location Yeah.
Speaker:And would have the artists meet up in various locations.
Speaker:Like, we ever since, Dave from De La Soul passed away, you know,
Speaker:all the old clips kept resurfacing of them out in California
Speaker:meeting with her and then being out in some fields somewhere, you
Speaker:know, talking about the albums and whatnot. And so it just
Speaker:it was a really a truly organic and
Speaker:fun time. And like you said, we need to give
Speaker:Dee Barnes her proppers big time for
Speaker:doing that. You you mentioned Pump It Up came on late
Speaker:on Saturday night. Mhmm. So in New York, Pump It Up came on after
Speaker:SNL Mhmm. And right before
Speaker:Showtime at the Apollo, which is the next syndicated
Speaker:Yep. Platform that we're gonna talk about. September
Speaker:12, 1987, Showtime at the Apollo goes
Speaker:nationally syndicated, but still late at night,
Speaker:but apparently, we were all staying up late so we could watch Showtime at the
Speaker:Apollo. Yeah. So tell me the Apollo not only was a place
Speaker:for national recording artists to go on, but so tell me the
Speaker:Apollo was like the original American Idol. Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, it really was because the Apollo Amateur night was
Speaker:famous and replicated so
Speaker:much even when you watch, even when you see the film dream girls or or
Speaker:talk about, like, amateur night. We were really
Speaker:all those years replicating what the Apollo Theater had been doing. So,
Speaker:yeah, you're absolutely right. That was the original
Speaker:black American Idol. You're right. And it had
Speaker:numerous guest hosts. We've spoken about Malcolm Jamal Warner
Speaker:being a guest host. Of course, famously Steve Harvey
Speaker:with his, hot top fade hair piece that we all found out
Speaker:later. That we all found out later. Sin our brother Sinbad.
Speaker:Sinbad. Yes. Can't give he cannot glaze over
Speaker:Sinbad. And you know what? You know who became iconic from this
Speaker:show? Well, 2 people. Sandman.
Speaker:Yes. Sandman was a whole icon.
Speaker:And of course, the lovely Kiki Shepherd
Speaker:who would slink onto the stage, who would rub the tree
Speaker:stump and what she was famous for putting her hand over the
Speaker:heads of the contestants on
Speaker:Yes. Amateur night, and she was just she was just it. You know, the beautiful
Speaker:smile, a dark skinned woman and that Absolutely. Being
Speaker:an icon of late night television. And like we said,
Speaker:so many stars came through that show, hip hop, r and b,
Speaker:jazz. There's such a there's a story
Speaker:attached to Showtime at the Apollo, which is a
Speaker:bittersweet story because I remember seeing the
Speaker:trajectory of this person on amateur night
Speaker:Yeah. Go from a shy
Speaker:contestant to a continuous
Speaker:winner. Yeah. A lot of you may not know the name, but
Speaker:you should know the name David Piston.
Speaker:David Piston was a if I'm not mistaken, he's
Speaker:from Ohio. So when the Midwest, I feel like I feel like it was
Speaker:like Saint Louis, but somewhere in the Midwest. Saint Louis in the yeah. So when
Speaker:he was a school teacher Mhmm. And he came out, and he
Speaker:he liked to sing. Now David Peterson was a big guy.
Speaker:Yep. Unassuming, you
Speaker:could tell he was nervous, but he was shy. But when he opened up his
Speaker:mouth, he sang that house down
Speaker:to the point where he came back week after week Yep. And he was
Speaker:packing everybody up. Each week, he packed everybody
Speaker:up, and he went on to win several times as,
Speaker:as a amateur contestant on Showtime at the Apollo.
Speaker:So much to the point where he got a record deal. Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. He got a record deal and became an actual recording
Speaker:artist. Mhmm. But, unfortunately,
Speaker:we still don't there's a a gap in that history. A lot of people
Speaker:don't remember that piece of the
Speaker:David Piston story. Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, David Piston is one of
Speaker:those artists that also deserves to be
Speaker:remembered to your point, Sir Daniel, about his trajectory
Speaker:on his showtime at the Apollo.
Speaker:In addition to the fact that, you know, he
Speaker:was really trying to make it as a recording artist in the 19
Speaker:eighties as a big black man in an industry
Speaker:that wasn't particularly fond. You had to be a certain type of black man. If
Speaker:you weren't Gerald Levert, like that type of black man, that type of big
Speaker:black man, it was gonna be different for you. And David Piston wasn't that.
Speaker:Right? But he got the opportunity to make 2
Speaker:records, and unfortunately died,
Speaker:got sick really early and then died really early.
Speaker:But, is one of those artists that came
Speaker:directly from that stage
Speaker:into our homes as a recording
Speaker:artist, and that is the power of what
Speaker:it show time at the Apollo was able to do and that Apollo amateur
Speaker:night stage. Absolutely. And that's why we have
Speaker:to lift up these platforms, and you have
Speaker:to remember them. You have to remember Soul Train. You
Speaker:gotta give it up for Arsenio Hall. You have to
Speaker:pay respect to to Dee Barnes and Pump It Up, and we
Speaker:have to show love to Showtime at the Apollo because without a
Speaker:lot of these shows, some of your favorite artists, iconic
Speaker:artists, legendary status artists would not have been seen
Speaker:on a nationally syndicated show. We do
Speaker:before we wrap up, we do have to point out this one
Speaker:sparkling moment in rap
Speaker:music history. Yeah. February 14,
Speaker:1981, Debbie Harry introduces the
Speaker:musical guest of the night on Saturday night
Speaker:live, and it is the funky
Speaker:4 plus 1 more. 1st
Speaker:rap group ever to be featured on a national
Speaker:television platform. J Ray, talk about
Speaker:it. Man. So I
Speaker:didn't see this until much later.
Speaker:You know, I didn't see it because as a as a kid, I was probably
Speaker:like 4. But as I started getting
Speaker:into, v h one actually showed me
Speaker:this history. Because remember VH one would kind of do a year in
Speaker:or they would do, like, these these wrap ups of what would happen. And I
Speaker:remember seeing it on maybe an I love the eighties or something like that.
Speaker:And I was floored to know that this happened,
Speaker:and eventually Saturday night live released like a
Speaker:DVD or some type of series where you could see,
Speaker:like, old clips and things from the thing. So I was able to rent it
Speaker:and see it. Man, these
Speaker:were kids. Yep. In
Speaker:this new form of music
Speaker:birthed in New York, Debbie Harry was already a huge
Speaker:fan. Right? So she was already white girl rapping in, like,
Speaker:rapture. Right? Fat Fat Freddie. You know what I'm saying? So she was already
Speaker:hip, and I'm sure she championed, like, no. They need to
Speaker:be on the show. Yes. But the fact that you get to see these young
Speaker:men and this young girl Who completely
Speaker:steals the show. Who completely steals the show rapping on stage,
Speaker:it reminded you how important representation
Speaker:was. Absolutely. And so
Speaker:that's what we do here on Q Points Podcast. Thank you so much for
Speaker:going down this road of black music
Speaker:history. J Ray, remind the people how they can get more of Q
Speaker:Points Podcast in their life. Y'all,
Speaker:this is dope. Thank you all for hanging out with us. So first and foremost,
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Speaker:y'all. That's right. Like I always say, in this life, you have
Speaker:a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record
Speaker:play. I'm DJ Sir Daniel. My name is Jay Ray y'all. And
Speaker:this has been Q Points podcast, dropping the needle on black
Speaker:music history. We will see you on the next go round. Peace
Speaker:y'all. Peace.
