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Episode 237

MTV Unplugged Helped Redefine the New Jack Swing Era

DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray trace MTV Unplugged from its late-1989 launch through its rise in popularity as the Milli Vanilli lip-syncing scandal put a spotlight on which artists could actually perform live. The conversation centers on how the acoustic format pressured artists to demonstrate vocal and instrumental skill in real time, with particular attention to Uptown Records' 1993 label-wide taping featuring Heavy D & the Boyz, Jodeci, and Mary J. Blige. The hosts connect that moment to the broader shift away from the drum machine and keyboard production that defined New Jack Swing, and examine how Unplugged performances by Mariah Carey, LL Cool J, Maxwell, Lauryn Hill, and Jay-Z shaped audience perception of these artists' range.

The Breakdown

  • How the Milli Vanilli scandal fueled Unplugged's popularity, even though the series had already launched months earlier
  • Uptown Records' 1993 label showcase and its role in repositioning Mary J. Blige and Jodeci beyond New Jack Swing's studio-built sound
  • Yo! MTV Raps Unplugged and what LL Cool J, A Tribe Called Quest, and MC Lyte's performances revealed about hip-hop's live capability
  • Maxwell's 1997 Unplugged and Lauryn Hill's 2001 special, and how each artist used the format at very different points in their careers

Uptown Records, Andre Harrell, Sean "Puffy" Combs, Heavy D & the Boyz, Jodeci, Mary J. Blige, Maxwell, Lauryn Hill, and Jay-Z all factor into a discussion that positions Unplugged as a turning point for how New Jack Swing-era artists were evaluated on musicianship rather than production polish.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Intro Theme

00:16 Welcome to Queue Points

00:57 MTV's Evolution and the Birth of Unplugged

04:42 Quick Transition

04:43 The Unplugged Concept and Mariah Carey

08:06 Nirvana and Yo! MTV Raps Unplugged

15:15 Insert Transition

15:22 Uptown Records MTV Unplugged

22:36 Quick Transition

22:37 Maxwell's Unplugged

26:21 Insert Transition

26:28 Lauryn Hill's Unplugged

32:38 Dream Unplugged Performances That Never Were

38:54 Jay-Z Unplugged

41:01 Outro and Sign Off

42:27 Outro Theme

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#NewJackSwing #MTVUnplugged #BlackMusicHistory #UptownRecords #90sRnB

Transcript
Sir Daniel:

Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast.

Sir Daniel:

I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray:

And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments

Jay Ray:

as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III.

Jay Ray:

And Sir Daniel, we are going into the way back machine, into a time in music

Jay Ray:

history, uh, where we got to watch some of the most popular contemporary

Jay Ray:

artists strip down what they were doing on record and give us these,

Jay Ray:

uh, acoustic style performances.

Jay Ray:

And it was a whole moment in time

Sir Daniel:

It definitely was.

Sir Daniel:

At this point, MTV, we've moved into the late '80s, early '90s.

Sir Daniel:

Um, I think for historical context, at this point, MTV is the video,

Sir Daniel:

um, platform that all the record labels are sending their artists

Sir Daniel:

to because at this point, MTV has diversified a lot of their programming.

Sir Daniel:

Um, it's not just music videos.

Sir Daniel:

They have live shows.

Sir Daniel:

They have different types of programming to make, to keep you tuned into

Sir Daniel:

MTV 24 hours a day, which is what they wanted 'cause it's on cable.

Sir Daniel:

And, um, also, as I stated, it's the early, it's the late '90s going…

Sir Daniel:

It's the late '80s going into the early '90s, and at this point, I

Sir Daniel:

think, Jay Ray, we've, the pivotal moment that we can think about is

Sir Daniel:

the Milli Vanilli situation where

Jay Ray:

exactly it.

Jay Ray:

That's why we needed

Sir Daniel:

they caught,

Sir Daniel:

they were caught lip syncing or accused of lip syncing, and it just became a moment

Sir Daniel:

of exposure where a lot of artists were like, "Oh, well, that's not us. We can

Sir Daniel:

really do the thing. We play instruments, or we can really sing." And so MTV, um,

Sir Daniel:

created a program called MTV Unplugged.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

and as Jay Ray said, this was a moment for artists to come and

Sir Daniel:

really show off their chops, whether it's playing acoustic instruments,

Sir Daniel:

nothing but a guitar, a drum, maybe some keys, and that's it, and the vocals.

Jay Ray:

Yeah

Sir Daniel:

Well, also MTV is evolving, um, racially as well because at this

Sir Daniel:

point, remember in the early days, MTV didn't have any Black, wasn't

Sir Daniel:

featuring any Black artists until Michael Jackson kicked in the doors.

Sir Daniel:

David Bowie, um, talked to, um, like really sh- um, showed them up and, and,

Sir Daniel:

and embarrassed them on television.

Sir Daniel:

Like, "Why don't you have Black artists on

Jay Ray:

Right

Sir Daniel:

this channel?" And so MTV has evolved.

Sir Daniel:

We've got Yo!

Sir Daniel:

MTV Raps.

Sir Daniel:

We've got, um, some, uh, R&B programming, um, that comes into play here and there.

Sir Daniel:

But we've got, um- More artists from the Black community, from

Sir Daniel:

the Black music community showing up on MTV on a regular basis.

Sir Daniel:

Hip-hop as a culture, uh, uh, the, is in like full upward trajectory at

Sir Daniel:

this point, and so it's, so MTV has no choice but to include programming and

Sir Daniel:

tailor programming around Black artists.

Jay Ray:

Yeah

Sir Daniel:

And one, and one of the complaints, like we could go back to

Sir Daniel:

the whole Milli Vanilli thing, and one of the complaints was that, you know,

Sir Daniel:

rappers don't really play instruments, and rappers aren't really musicians.

Jay Ray:

Yep

Sir Daniel:

So a lot of… So hip-hop heard that challenge and said, "Hold

Sir Daniel:

my beer. We're going to come and do not just MTV Unplugged, we're

Sir Daniel:

going to do Yo! MTV Unplugged."

Jay Ray:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sir Daniel:

Yo!

Sir Daniel:

MTV, uh, Raps Unplugged.

Jay Ray:

mm-hmm

Sir Daniel:

Jay Ray, before we, before I let you go, I wanna say, I wanna

Sir Daniel:

give, um, s- um, props to Ted Demme,

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel:

Fab 5 Freddy, Todd One, Dr. Dre and Ed Lover because they,

Sir Daniel:

uh, behind the scenes, you know, some of them were front-facing, but

Sir Daniel:

behind the scenes they really had to fight for this representation.

Sir Daniel:

So I really wanna give them props, and Ted Demme was, fought for it as well.

Sir Daniel:

He, and he was the white guy that helped push it through.

Sir Daniel:

So shout out to those and, and rest in peace to Ted Demme.

Jay Ray:

Unplugged a very interesting and unique concept for the moment.

Jay Ray:

Um, if we think about the 1980s the early 1990s, everything for

Jay Ray:

the most part had moved electronic in some way, shape, or form.

Jay Ray:

Very keyboard-heavy, drum machines, um, not a, a, a, a lot of, um, actual

Jay Ray:

instruments, uh, in the tr- in the acoustic traditional sense, right?

Sir Daniel:

Right

Jay Ray:

Unplugged gave, uh, artists the ability to do was to reimagine, these

Jay Ray:

songs in front of this smaller audience.

Jay Ray:

It was a much more intimate crowd.

Jay Ray:

Um, but it also gave them an opportunity, quite frankly, to your

Jay Ray:

point, to show off their chops.

Jay Ray:

Like, can you, can you rock this kinda crowd?

Jay Ray:

And to that point- Um, I, there are so many Unplugged performances that I

Jay Ray:

absolutely love, but when I think of Black MTV Unplugged performances that

Jay Ray:

really, like, made an impact on me and I was like, "Oh, snap," um, Mariah Carey

Jay Ray:

and Trey Lorenz doing I'll Be There

Sir Daniel:

Oh yeah

Jay Ray:

a moment in time.

Jay Ray:

Now, we should also contextualize this moment for Mariah Carey.

Jay Ray:

This is really key.

Jay Ray:

Mariah Carey is, has become a superstar by the time she does Unplugged, right?

Jay Ray:

Her first album goes crazy.

Jay Ray:

She's now a year later releasing her second album.

Jay Ray:

is in a crystal case, like in terms of how she's being treated, right?

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm

Jay Ray:

And people have questions about can she really do that?

Jay Ray:

Like, is that a thing?

Jay Ray:

That thing that she's doing on the records, can she really do that thing?

Sir Daniel:

The Whistle Notes

Jay Ray:

The whistle notes and, like, all of that, because Mariah

Jay Ray:

records, she- Mariah's a studio rat.

Jay Ray:

Those records are heavily produced.

Jay Ray:

She loves being in the studio.

Jay Ray:

But can she reproduce it?

Jay Ray:

what we learned in the Unplugged performance was she absolutely could.

Jay Ray:

And

Sir Daniel:

rest

Jay Ray:

could she reproduce it, she showed us who her influences were,

Jay Ray:

like, through these performances.

Jay Ray:

Like, you clearly got to see, like, Mariah in this way.

Jay Ray:

So even just, uh, her and Trey doing I'll Be There, which was a super

Jay Ray:

interesting choice, unique, but Mariah bodied, and Trey Lorenz bodied, too,

Jay Ray:

and it was, like, not even a thing.

Jay Ray:

Mariah was like, "No, do that."

Sir Daniel:

Juzwiak

Jay Ray:

"I need you to do your thing." And it became just, like,

Jay Ray:

such an important hallmark performance of what Unplugged could be.

Jay Ray:

It, it showed Black artists like, oh, if you go here and show what you can

Jay Ray:

do, it'll give you something else.

Jay Ray:

And Mariah got a whole other hit out of this with I'll Be There, but

Jay Ray:

it was from the Unplugged release

Sir Daniel:

She sure did.

Sir Daniel:

I think, um, I, I wanna say, so there's two things that I wanna harken to as far

Sir Daniel:

as like, uh, what really stands out to me as far as MTV Unplugged performances.

Sir Daniel:

Um, the very first MTV Unplugged performance that really made me

Sir Daniel:

sit up and take notice was Nirvana.

Sir Daniel:

Nirvana's, um, d- doing their, um, "Smells Like Teen Spirit,"

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

from that al- from those albums, and I think,

Jay Ray:

If their

Sir Daniel:

I

Jay Ray:

had come out, yeah,

Sir Daniel:

think the second album had come out then.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

so hearing them do that, and what MTV was great for doing was

Sir Daniel:

not only were they playing the actual music videos, but what they would do is

Sir Daniel:

they would edit those, um, live, those Unplugged performances and put them in

Sir Daniel:

rotation on, on their programming, and you could see, you could watch those,

Sir Daniel:

um, live performances over and over again as they came up in programming.

Sir Daniel:

So, you know, Black people, uh, we live for Nirv- Nirvana.

Sir Daniel:

We love us a Teen Spirit, and so I absolutely loved that performance.

Sir Daniel:

But when M- Yo!

Sir Daniel:

MTV Raps Unplugged came along, that was an event, Jay Ray.

Jay Ray:

It was

Sir Daniel:

That was an event.

Sir Daniel:

Um, we, you had LL Cool J, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul,

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel:

the lone female rapper of the group, MC Lyte.

Jay Ray:

Yep

Sir Daniel:

the only one, and she did "Cappuccino," and I think they,

Sir Daniel:

everybody did probably about one song.

Sir Daniel:

I think LL Cool J may have been the one that was able to go on a little longer.

Sir Daniel:

But LL Cool J's performance really stands out in my mind because at

Sir Daniel:

that moment I realized that he was, he was more than just a rapper.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel:

I think he became, he became fully realized because we had never seen

Sir Daniel:

him in that element, and I think nobody ever r- nobody really expected these

Sir Daniel:

MCs, these rappers who were used to just having a microphone and a DJ or a DAT to

Sir Daniel:

rap to could, one, keep up with a band

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

Can

Sir Daniel:

And

Jay Ray:

stay there for a minute?

Jay Ray:

Oh, keep going,

Sir Daniel:

absolutely.

Jay Ray:

get back to that

Sir Daniel:

Certainly, to one, keep up with a band and be in pocket with a band

Jay Ray:

Yeah

Sir Daniel:

um, and also, um, not rely heavily on being overproduced.

Sir Daniel:

Like,

Jay Ray:

Yeah

Sir Daniel:

I have-- I can project.

Sir Daniel:

I can, I can rap and make you feel it right here in the front row, and you in

Sir Daniel:

the nosebleeds, you're gonna feel it too.

Jay Ray:

Yeah

Sir Daniel:

everybody on that lineup, but with in particular LL Cool J really

Sir Daniel:

stands out in those performances and really, I think took, made people sit

Sir Daniel:

up and notice about hip-hop even more and really took a rapper seriously.

Sir Daniel:

And I think after that, and we're gonna talk about bands here, you saw a lot more

Sir Daniel:

rappers taking bands on the road with them after, after MTV, YonTV, um, Unplugged

Jay Ray:

Yep, that's exactly where I wanna spend some time.

Jay Ray:

I think this is such an important moment to kind of spend some time in this

Jay Ray:

history, 'cause you're absolutely right.

Jay Ray:

so interesting about rap music is a culture, uh, as a, as a, as a

Jay Ray:

format, rapping was such a live experience, like when it first begins.

Jay Ray:

It's a live experience.

Jay Ray:

It is this, this, this MC and this DJ kind of interacting with this

Jay Ray:

crowd that's in front of them, right?

Jay Ray:

And, and just kind of like coming off the dome and doing all this stuff.

Jay Ray:

Um, when rap transitions to a recorded art form, there's no model for doing what

Jay Ray:

they were doing on stage in a studio yet.

Jay Ray:

Like, that's not a thing.

Jay Ray:

You- a DJ then wasn't able to go in and do what they were doing on stage in a studio.

Jay Ray:

It just wasn't the time for that yet.

Jay Ray:

what rap was when it became a recorded art form was they would

Jay Ray:

have bands that would be replaying these breaks in the studio, right?

Jay Ray:

Because that's how you had to do it then.

Jay Ray:

They were using the traditional production model of how records were

Jay Ray:

produced in that moment in time, and creating rap records on top of them.

Jay Ray:

So these are, these are bands in the studio playing

Jay Ray:

with rappers rapping, right?

Jay Ray:

the time we get the drum machine- Rap is, uh, its own thing, right?

Jay Ray:

So we no longer need the band in the studio.

Jay Ray:

Studios are more sophisticated.

Jay Ray:

We're able to kind of do the things that we're able to do,

Jay Ray:

uh, on stage in the studio now.

Jay Ray:

We can sample the way that we can sample.

Jay Ray:

We got this MPC.

Jay Ray:

We're able to do everything that we can do.

Jay Ray:

We don't need a band per se, right?

Jay Ray:

So that's where we are when this happens, right?

Jay Ray:

So we hadn't seen, this is pre-Digable Planets.

Jay Ray:

This is pre The Roots.

Jay Ray:

This is after Stetsasonic, but Stetsasonic was just like

Jay Ray:

a rare experience in hip-hop.

Jay Ray:

You know what I mean?

Jay Ray:

Where you have this hip-hop band.

Jay Ray:

So could that be something that's commercially viable?

Jay Ray:

And to your point, Sir Daniel, the Yo!

Jay Ray:

MTV Raps Unplugged proved that one, rappers could rock with a band.

Jay Ray:

One, the band could figure, like, could be in that pocket, 'cause the important

Jay Ray:

thing about hip-hop is the pocket.

Jay Ray:

Like, that drummer has to be able to do that thing repetitively so

Jay Ray:

that rapper can do what they do.

Jay Ray:

But they can interplay, and so this proved that that was possible.

Jay Ray:

loved Lyte's performance in this MTV Unplugged.

Jay Ray:

First of all, Cappuccino was just made for this environment.

Jay Ray:

Um, shout out to MC Lyte and her storytelling.

Jay Ray:

Like, probably just need to do a show

Sir Daniel:

What's a cafe on the West Side?

Jay Ray:

Midtown." You know

Jay Ray:

"So I stepped in and I ordered a cup." So it's just such great storytelling.

Jay Ray:

But, um, A Tribe Called Quest, right, who are a new band, right?

Jay Ray:

They're a new group at the time when MTV Unplugged happens.

Jay Ray:

Um, they are still a four-pack at this f- at this point.

Jay Ray:

And doing, uh, Can I Kick It Live, you know?

Jay Ray:

And of course, sampling, you know, the, the band is playing Walk on the Wild Side,

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm

Jay Ray:

their own.

Jay Ray:

And I think to your point, Sir Daniel, this was the moment when folks figured out

Jay Ray:

like, oh, hip-hop is more than just people

Sir Daniel:

Fix that

Jay Ray:

and a DJ.

Jay Ray:

Like, you can have a band, and this is pre bands including DJs.

Jay Ray:

Now it's regular to have a DJ

Sir Daniel:

Have both.

Sir Daniel:

Yep

Jay Ray:

what I'm saying?

Jay Ray:

The DJ is just kind of part of the band like everybody else.

Jay Ray:

But before this happened, that was completely rare, and it's such an

Jay Ray:

important moment in hip-hop history.

Jay Ray:

And you're right, like, LL showed that he was a superstar in that performance

Sir Daniel:

He absolutely did.

Sir Daniel:

And so when you fast-forward to, that was 1991,

Sir Daniel:

when we fast-forward to 1993 in this moment, wow.

Sir Daniel:

Uptown Records, it has such a stronghold and has really, um, re-

Sir Daniel:

recreate, not recreated, but has, um, reimagined what R&B is and really what

Sir Daniel:

could, it could be for the future.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

Because they've … At that moment, Uptown Records launched

Sir Daniel:

the careers of some people that really changed the face of R&B and what R&B

Sir Daniel:

sounded like and what R&B looked like.

Sir Daniel:

And so when we talk about the Uptown MTV Unplugged, you're talking

Sir Daniel:

about a marriage made in heaven.

Jay Ray:

Yeah

Sir Daniel:

Because if you look at the M- the Uptown roster by 1993, you've

Sir Daniel:

got powerhouses like Heavy D & the Boyz,

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel:

Jodeci, the legend herself, Mary J.

Sir Daniel:

Blige,

Jay Ray:

Father MC, we

Sir Daniel:

who

Jay Ray:

forget Father MC

Sir Daniel:

cannot forget Father MC.

Sir Daniel:

And, uh, but this is a very important moment for Mary J. Blige as well.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel:

like the rappers having to prove that they were more than just

Sir Daniel:

people who, who said words on the mic, Mary J. Blige had under- was under

Sir Daniel:

a lot of scrutiny as well for her song stylings and her vocal ability.

Sir Daniel:

You

Jay Ray:

love that.

Sir Daniel:

know I love, I love s- calling somebody a song stylist.

Sir Daniel:

And she … And so this was a very important moment for her as well because

Sir Daniel:

by 1993 Mary has … So What's the 411 is, is a classic record at this point.

Sir Daniel:

She's in our hearts.

Sir Daniel:

She's our girl, you know, um, squarely in the Black community, a generation.

Sir Daniel:

She is, she's clearly our representative.

Sir Daniel:

And so in this moment Mary J. Blige I think is at the forefront to me, and I

Sir Daniel:

think that this was a very pivotal moment for her to prove her vocal prowess, her

Sir Daniel:

stage presence, all the things that people were picking apart about her as an artist.

Sir Daniel:

And so, but we, I mean, we get some serious performances with Yo MTV,

Sir Daniel:

not yo, but M- Uptown MTV Unplugged.

Sir Daniel:

I mean crazy.

Sir Daniel:

Heavy D…

Jay Ray:

Yeah

Sir Daniel:

I'm gonna let you talk because I could just, you know me, I could just

Sir Daniel:

yap on ad nauseam about this whole thing

Jay Ray:

no, no, no.

Jay Ray:

I think i- I want to underscore, um, how important it is, going back to that

Jay Ray:

idea of music had become so electronic.

Sir Daniel:

Yes

Jay Ray:

swing at its core,

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

keyboards, drum machines, da, da, da, da, doo.

Jay Ray:

Right?

Jay Ray:

this is Uptown's foundation, right?

Jay Ray:

Um, so this is an opportunity for Andre Harrell and a then

Jay Ray:

young Sean "Puffy" Combs

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm

Jay Ray:

to take their artists show the world, 'cause really what

Jay Ray:

this is is a showcase for the world that this is sellable to white

Jay Ray:

audiences, that white audiences would be interested in seeing this.

Jay Ray:

So they had to package these artists up.

Jay Ray:

That's why there's such an interesting variety.

Jay Ray:

So we mentioned all of these, like, different types of artists,

Jay Ray:

so but it's all Uptown, right?

Jay Ray:

So they're showing, "Oh, we got something for everybody.

Jay Ray:

You not into Christopher Williams?

Jay Ray:

That's okay, we got a Heavy D. You not into that?

Jay Ray:

Oh, we got a Jodeci.

Jay Ray:

Oh, we got a Mary.

Jay Ray:

Oh, we got a da, da, da." Right?

Jay Ray:

all of these artists did, think, show up in their, their tr- their fullness,

Jay Ray:

and one of the most important classics that we do get out of this Jodeci.

Jay Ray:

So Jodeci takes Stevie Wonder's Lately, which is a beautiful song

Sir Daniel:

Gorgeous

Jay Ray:

right?

Jay Ray:

re-imagines it in their own style, being true to what Stevie created,

Jay Ray:

but it is, like, for the artist now.

Jay Ray:

And that song becomes such an important staple on R&B radio.

Jay Ray:

You can still hear Jodeci's version of Lately on R&B radio

Jay Ray:

today because it's so impactful.

Jay Ray:

And we should also mention, Sir Daniel, one, this is the first

Jay Ray:

label-centric MTV Unplugged.

Jay Ray:

It might be only.

Jay Ray:

I don't know

Sir Daniel:

No

Jay Ray:

ever did anything quite like this again.

Jay Ray:

we got a full release of this on Uptown as well, so you can still go

Jay Ray:

back and listen to these performances.

Jay Ray:

They repackaged them and released them as, as full releases.

Jay Ray:

And even Lately, Jodeci's Lately, I do think they re-recorded it, so I

Jay Ray:

think there's a, the live version, but then I think there's an in studio

Sir Daniel:

A studio version

Jay Ray:

But I think it's just really important to underscore that

Jay Ray:

when this happened This wasn't a, a sure bet, you know what I'm saying?

Jay Ray:

Like, they, Andre and Puff had to really work to make sure that this thing was

Jay Ray:

packaged the way it needed to be packaged, and it went off the way it went off in

Jay Ray:

order to work, and it's become one of the most important MTV Unpluggeds, period

Sir Daniel:

I think so.

Sir Daniel:

And, uh, there's something I wanna go back to really quickly, of a

Sir Daniel:

very important point that you made.

Sir Daniel:

This s- particularly this, um, Uptown, um, Unplugged, um, uh, combination was

Sir Daniel:

very important because we weren't getting a lot of live… Radio wasn't playing

Sir Daniel:

a lot of live recordings at the time.

Jay Ray:

Mm-mm.

Sir Daniel:

And so because of this, um, this collabo between

Sir Daniel:

MTV and Uptown, we got live recordings in radio rotation again.

Jay Ray:

Yep

Sir Daniel:

You know, and there's only a few artists that when you

Sir Daniel:

think about it, that radio would play live versions of their tunes

Sir Daniel:

or their labels made live versions available to radio for radio to play.

Sir Daniel:

So I think that that's something to, to, to, to magnify really

Sir Daniel:

quickly just to say, you know what?

Sir Daniel:

This was, this was also important to Black radio.

Sir Daniel:

And so that because when you think about it as a listener, if I'm

Sir Daniel:

hearing, you know, Jodeci live and, a- and they're singing "Lately,"

Sir Daniel:

I'm more apt to say, "You know what?

Sir Daniel:

When Jodeci comes to my town, my corner of the planet, I'm gonna

Sir Daniel:

go see them because according to this, they do the real thing live.

Sir Daniel:

And so I'm gonna, I know I'm gonna go and get a great show."

Sir Daniel:

So I think that's super important to radio.

Jay Ray:

Unplugged becomes kind of a mainstay in the MTV ecosystem for

Jay Ray:

several years, and to that point of, like, live infiltrating radio, uh,

Jay Ray:

three years later, be four years later, this might've been '97, um, a brand

Jay Ray:

new artist who had released their debut album, uh, Maxwell's Urban Hang

Jay Ray:

Suite, Maxwell got his own Unplugged.

Jay Ray:

And I think what was so unique about this is Maxwell was still really new as

Sir Daniel:

Yes

Jay Ray:

He had definitely penetrated Black radio.

Jay Ray:

Like, Maxwell was, was winning.

Jay Ray:

Uh, by the time Ascension came out, which was song number two,

Jay Ray:

Maxwell was, like, in there.

Jay Ray:

We was in there with him.

Jay Ray:

But we got something super special with his Unplugged when he did

Jay Ray:

his version of This Woman's Work.

Jay Ray:

Once again, they had the live version, which I think is the,

Jay Ray:

the, the, um, definitive version of

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm

Jay Ray:

but they also have an in-studio version of it as well.

Jay Ray:

But what's so unique about this is, of course, he's taking this, this,

Jay Ray:

um, pop song that's a remake, um,

Sir Daniel:

Somebody want me?

Jay Ray:

sung by a woman, singing it in his falsetto

Sir Daniel:

Baby, he was up there

Jay Ray:

up there.

Jay Ray:

I wonder, I've never seen, uh, Maxwell live.

Jay Ray:

Let us know in the comments when you listen to this if Maxwell does this

Jay Ray:

woman's work, and where is that key?

Jay Ray:

Let us because in 1996 and 1997, he was way up there doing this.

Jay Ray:

But radio picked up thing, and we still hear that once

Jay Ray:

again on, uh, R&B radio today.

Jay Ray:

Quiet Storm, you're gonna get This Woman's Work by Maxwell

Sir Daniel:

Uh, it just dawned on me.

Sir Daniel:

This is something s- very special about Maxwell's Unplugged to me.

Sir Daniel:

Maxwell's Unplugged was recorded at Brooklyn Academy of Music,

Jay Ray:

Shout out

Sir Daniel:

which is directly across the street next door to 38 Lafayette,

Sir Daniel:

which is Hanson Place Seventh-day Adventist School, which is where a

Sir Daniel:

young DJ Sir Daniel attended school from the age of two years old up until 13.

Jay Ray:

Wow

Sir Daniel:

Brooklyn Academy of Music was so important to us, Jay Ray.

Sir Daniel:

I think I may have mentioned it.

Sir Daniel:

They would invite us students to come ac- walk across the street and, um, and

Sir Daniel:

see performances, and that was such a… tho- those are such impactful moments

Sir Daniel:

to me in particular, um, to see live music being performed, to see dance, um,

Sir Daniel:

to, to see choreography, to see acting.

Sir Daniel:

I mean, thank God for Brooklyn Academy of Music, and it's still there.

Sir Daniel:

Thank God for- Mm-hmm … opening their doors to us and allowing, you

Sir Daniel:

know, these young, these young Black kids, impressionable Black kids to

Sir Daniel:

just hold hands, 'cause you know at that age we had to hold hands.

Sir Daniel:

Find a partner and hold hands and walk across the street and,

Sir Daniel:

um, and to, to go and check out this, um, these performances.

Sir Daniel:

But yeah, I, you know, finding out that Maxwell's Unplugged was performed at

Sir Daniel:

Brooklyn Academy of Music really, you know, gave me a little, you know, a

Sir Daniel:

little oomph, a little BK pride, which is something that continued later on.

Sir Daniel:

I guess we gotta talk about Lauryn Hill's Unplugged.

Jay Ray:

do.

Sir Daniel:

we have to?

Sir Daniel:

Yeah, okay, we do

Jay Ray:

Well, well, okay.

Jay Ray:

We do from the perspective of

Sir Daniel:

It happened.

Jay Ray:

it happened.

Jay Ray:

Honestly, I, I have never heard that thing in full.

Jay Ray:

Um,

Sir Daniel:

It's a heavy lift

Jay Ray:

it's a heavy lift, but I, I, I do wanna, I do want to mention for those

Jay Ray:

that weren't there, when this release happened, this was before we knew what

Jay Ray:

it entailed because I don't think many people had seen the actual performance.

Jay Ray:

But I remember the double disc release being, this was a

Jay Ray:

big deal in the record store.

Jay Ray:

You know what I'm saying?

Sir Daniel:

Oh, yes

Jay Ray:

Because it's Lauryn Hill.

Jay Ray:

Lauryn Hill spent 1998 and 1999 conquering the world, and had disappeared after that.

Jay Ray:

So we were expecting different than what we got.

Jay Ray:

And what I think is worth mentioning is that Unplugged was willing to take risks,

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm

Jay Ray:

Lauryn's Unplugged was absolutely a risk.

Jay Ray:

Um, it didn't pan out commercially, but it did give us a glimpse into

Jay Ray:

what an unraveling of stardom at that time kind of looked like.

Jay Ray:

This was not something we had seen in hip-hop before.

Jay Ray:

I think this is, this was the first time where we were like, "Yo,

Jay Ray:

happened to Lauryn?" And we got a whole record that chronicled it.

Sir Daniel:

I think that that's, um

Sir Daniel:

That sentiment right there.

Sir Daniel:

Yo, what hap- that could be a T-shirt.

Sir Daniel:

Yo, what happened to Lauryn?

Sir Daniel:

Literally was echoed from, from hood to hood across America because we were all

Sir Daniel:

looking like… I think people had just been so wrapped up in the whole, um, Doo

Sir Daniel:

Wop That Thing of it all, and the joy and the happiness of Zion and, and all

Sir Daniel:

that upliftment and, you know, she had…

Sir Daniel:

Wait, where's her locks?

Sir Daniel:

Where's the, you know, she's not, she's not done up.

Sir Daniel:

Well, yeah, of course she had a baby.

Sir Daniel:

Okay, we can understand that.

Sir Daniel:

Is she pregnant again or… You

Jay Ray:

Right

Sir Daniel:

there's all of this stuff, all this real-life stuff

Sir Daniel:

that's happening to this woman.

Sir Daniel:

And, you know, in true human fashion, as consumers, we're selfish.

Sir Daniel:

We want Doo Wop That Thing.

Sir Daniel:

We

Jay Ray:

like what is

Sir Daniel:

we want that thing that you… What is this?

Sir Daniel:

Uh, this is not bringing me joy.

Sir Daniel:

This is not happiness.

Sir Daniel:

And it, it reflected definitely, I remember I was, 'cause this was in 2001,

Sir Daniel:

so I was definitely working at HMV, and I remember those boxes and boxes

Sir Daniel:

of that CD just kept sitting there.

Sir Daniel:

People, it was just not something that people were, um, drawn to and

Sir Daniel:

wanted to relive over and over again.

Sir Daniel:

I remember I got a copy, took it home, and I mean, I was just, I was

Sir Daniel:

exhausted after listening to it.

Sir Daniel:

It was just… And then, oh, and this is something that we

Sir Daniel:

had not experienced either.

Sir Daniel:

She was breaking down and crying

Jay Ray:

Yeah

Sir Daniel:

in the middle of the performance.

Sir Daniel:

I don't think we've ever experienced that.

Sir Daniel:

Our generation

Jay Ray:

No

Sir Daniel:

has ever experienced seeing an artist, um, have a real-life

Sir Daniel:

emotional breakdown on television or, and have it recorded so that we

Sir Daniel:

could re- hear it over and over again.

Sir Daniel:

And I think that, that part of made it unlistenable to a lot of people as well

Jay Ray:

Y- you know, it's so interesting, sir, that I hadn't

Jay Ray:

thought of that in that way.

Jay Ray:

But,

Jay Ray:

I do think it is an interesting artistic choice, and I'm sure Lauryn

Jay Ray:

had, had a piece of this, there were a lot of false starts on this as well.

Jay Ray:

Like, she would start … 'Cause Lauryn, she wasn't a proficient, uh, guitar

Jay Ray:

player, uh, at the time, and so there was just a lot of false starts, so the

Jay Ray:

song would almost be whatever, whatever.

Jay Ray:

most musicians would be like, "All of that gotta go. cut that whole beginning

Jay Ray:

part out. I need this part, whatever, fade here," you know what I'm saying?

Jay Ray:

'Cause I start crying, and I don't want that in the thing.

Jay Ray:

W- that's in the double disc.

Jay Ray:

It's a double disc.

Sir Daniel:

It's a double disc

Jay Ray:

double disc, that mean, disc could hold up to,

Jay Ray:

like, 70 minutes of music.

Jay Ray:

This is a double

Sir Daniel:

Ooh.

Sir Daniel:

And you know, you bring up something very important.

Sir Daniel:

There's a lot of money at stake here too, because this is, the

Sir Daniel:

label has, um, is putting up money, musicians have to be paid.

Sir Daniel:

MTV is putting up its cameras, its lights, its Times S- they've got Times

Sir Daniel:

Square, so the venue Times Square has to be, you know, taken care of in some

Sir Daniel:

form of f- financial form as well.

Sir Daniel:

And so she can't.

Sir Daniel:

This is not something that you can go back and say, "You know what, guys? I'm

Sir Daniel:

off t- I was a little off tonight. Let's just all come back tomorrow night and

Sir Daniel:

we'll do it again." That's not happening.

Sir Daniel:

That could not happen.

Jay Ray:

it

Sir Daniel:

And this is it.

Sir Daniel:

And so we literally, if you, if you're interested, you can hear in

Sir Daniel:

real time what happened to this woman musically, and the, and the reason

Sir Daniel:

why people were kind of like…

Sir Daniel:

It started this conversation around the, the validity of this

Sir Daniel:

star, this, the superstar that we had created as a, as an audience.

Sir Daniel:

You know what I'm saying?

Sir Daniel:

It started that conversation a- and, and people still to this day

Sir Daniel:

have this conversation of, "Oh, y'all give Lauryn Hill too much.

Sir Daniel:

She only had that one record."

Sir Daniel:

And it's like, is she really that dope?

Sir Daniel:

And it started that con- th- that's the kink in her armor, and

Sir Daniel:

it started, I believe, um, at the release of the, her un- MTV Unplugged

Jay Ray:

You know, um, as we wind down, one, I have a question for you that

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm

Jay Ray:

I'm, I'm curious about, but as we wind down, I'm thinking about

Jay Ray:

this idea, like L- the Lauryn Unplugged probably the most raw really

Jay Ray:

does live up to the idea of what Unplugged was supposed to be, right?

Jay Ray:

This kind of very authentic experience of this artist interacting with their,

Jay Ray:

their work, interacting with the audience and the musicians that are with them.

Jay Ray:

And z- uh, say what you want about the Lauryn Unplugged album, which I

Jay Ray:

still have not heard and I probably will not hear in this lifetime.

Jay Ray:

I'm just not, you know… But it's very, it was authentic

Jay Ray:

to where she was at the time.

Jay Ray:

And I would be curious, um, she probably is good with it.

Jay Ray:

I don't know if anyone's ever asked her, like, to reflect on it, because

Jay Ray:

now we're at the 25th anniversary of it,

Sir Daniel:

Yeah

Jay Ray:

am curious to know what she thinks.

Jay Ray:

And maybe that's a question we'll just ask on social media, like, directly,

Jay Ray:

like, "Yo, Lauryn, like, it's 25 years since Unplugged. Like, what do you think,

Jay Ray:

like, what do you, do you feel about that body of work today?" Let's, let's

Sir Daniel:

As it sit, as it sits in your discography and your body of work.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah

Jay Ray:

So here's my question, Sir Daniel.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm

Jay Ray:

Who is one, what is one or two Unpluggeds that you wish happened?

Sir Daniel:

Hmm

Sir Daniel:

Huh.

Sir Daniel:

I think we really should have gotten, we should have gotten a MTV Unplugged

Sir Daniel:

Invincible I know we got the ti- the, the, the 2001 performance and all

Sir Daniel:

that, but I, I know there was a lot of stuff going on, but I really do

Sir Daniel:

think maybe that that could have pushed things over, pushed the, that record,

Sir Daniel:

that body of work a little further

Jay Ray:

yeah.

Jay Ray:

Me and you are in the exact same space.

Jay Ray:

If there's any, if there's the, the one Unplugged that I wish

Jay Ray:

happened, and I actually don't wish it was Invincible, but I think it

Jay Ray:

should've been released at the time.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm

Jay Ray:

truly do wish Michael Jackson just went on stage and did

Jay Ray:

Michael Jackson history of songs.

Jay Ray:

Like, can you imagine a stripped down Billie Jean and a stripped down

Jay Ray:

Man in the Mirror, where Michael Jackson is not being Michael Jackson?

Jay Ray:

He's j- it's just him and the band and that voice.

Jay Ray:

Baby, I don't need you to dance.

Jay Ray:

You can tiptoe around that stage a little bit, but what I really need

Jay Ray:

you to do is we just need to have a conversation because m- that voice

Jay Ray:

and those songs are so timeless.

Jay Ray:

So I'm with you.

Jay Ray:

I wish that in 2001, ahead of the release that, of Invincible, that Michael Jackson

Jay Ray:

had done an Unplugged, a true Unplugged, where it's like, "No, Michael, you're not

Jay Ray:

doing none of that. You literally going, we give you this stool, and we give you

Jay Ray:

a microphone, and this band. Work it out, child." I wish we'd gotten that.

Sir Daniel:

can I have one more?

Jay Ray:

Of course, yeah, you can, 'cause I have another one too.

Jay Ray:

I wonder if we're on the same page again.

Jay Ray:

Ooh.

Sir Daniel:

I, so I kinda wish we could, and we did kind of get it, but I kinda

Sir Daniel:

wish that there was a overlap or a, a collaboration between Sisters in the

Sir Daniel:

Name of Rap and MTV Unplugged because we saw what MC Lyte could do with a band.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel:

At this point, Salt-N-Pepa has a all-girl band that they were

Sir Daniel:

on tour with from DC, a go-go band.

Sir Daniel:

I can't remember their name right now.

Sir Daniel:

For, was it For Pleasure or something like that?

Sir Daniel:

A Pleasure or something like that.

Sir Daniel:

Anyway, so, so MC Lyte, Queen Latifah, who is also, um, touring with a band and doing

Sir Daniel:

stuff with a band, I think, and they were, for all intents and purposes, like the

Sir Daniel:

mainstays of female rapdom at the time.

Sir Daniel:

Like the hierarchy, it was them.

Sir Daniel:

They were the ones that were constantly on MTV.

Sir Daniel:

Um, we'd seen them perform.

Sir Daniel:

So I think, you know, and this is, and this is clearly

Sir Daniel:

a, a Sir Daniel moment here.

Sir Daniel:

I think that would have really done well and gone down in, um, history as

Sir Daniel:

a great moment, um, of an unplugged version filmed by MTV, 'cause they really

Sir Daniel:

could do a great job of these pioneering women that really would've lasted still

Sir Daniel:

to this day, and we probably could've gotten some really great, um, live

Sir Daniel:

performances to play on the radio, like we mentioned the other ones of the past.

Sir Daniel:

And, uh, yeah.

Sir Daniel:

So yeah, that would be my other one

Jay Ray:

I love that.

Jay Ray:

I love that.

Jay Ray:

Um, my, my other one, and this is a dream, um, one, would've been

Jay Ray:

an official The Roots, Bahamadia, and Gang Starr Unplugged.

Sir Daniel:

Ooh

Jay Ray:

That would be so crazy.

Jay Ray:

Like, just think of, like, the power of, like, having that go down.

Jay Ray:

You got the jazz inflection of Gang Starr.

Jay Ray:

You have, with Bahamadia, right?

Jay Ray:

Bahamadia's kind of the center because she's bridging Gang

Jay Ray:

Starr and The Roots together.

Jay Ray:

You know what I mean?

Jay Ray:

that would've went crazy

Sir Daniel:

That would've gone, gone dumb.

Sir Daniel:

Yep.

Jay Ray:

Yeah,

Sir Daniel:

beats, unplugged versions of Preemo beats.

Sir Daniel:

That would've been something.

Jay Ray:

Crazy,

Sir Daniel:

Listen, well, we can't even say MTV call us 'cause, well, there's no

Jay Ray:

We

Sir Daniel:

more MTV.

Jay Ray:

unfortunately.

Jay Ray:

No more

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

Um

Sir Daniel:

before we get out of here though, we gotta, we

Sir Daniel:

gotta take it back to Brooklyn

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

So

Sir Daniel:

the last, was this the final

Jay Ray:

It wasn't the final Unplugged.

Jay Ray:

There were, there were Unplugs after that.

Jay Ray:

Um, but it really did, um, Jay-Z as just an interesting artist

Jay Ray:

who, um… Here's the thing.

Jay Ray:

For all the things we wanna say about Jay-Z, um, and his dominance

Jay Ray:

as a pop culture figure, Jay-Z is also a squarely an artist.

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

And, um, just speaking of The Roots, right, him pairing with Questlove

Jay Ray:

to pull together the band for the official Jay-Z Unplugged, is a moment in time.

Jay Ray:

So you get this overlap of Philly and Brooklyn happening, and it is one of the

Jay Ray:

best Unplugs that they ever released, 'cause, you know, it was, everybody was

Jay Ray:

firing on all cylinders for that joint

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

Now, noticeably missing from this Unplugged performance, because

Sir Daniel:

I think what had Jay come off of where Mary J. Blige was featured

Sir Daniel:

on heavily on, like, "Living in the City," um, and some other records.

Sir Daniel:

It was Ma- like… Well, Mary had also appeared on Reasonable Doubt,

Sir Daniel:

uh, for some of his biggest hit, hits, "Can't Knock the Hustle."

Sir Daniel:

So he, people were expecting to see Mary, but boys and girls, singing, um, lead

Sir Daniel:

vocals was one Jaguar Wright, who at the time, you, we, we, she did her big one.

Jay Ray:

Like, she was the next up.

Jay Ray:

Like, we, we looking at Jag, she's that girl.

Jay Ray:

She's about to be

Sir Daniel:

she sat in there.

Sir Daniel:

She, she s- she stood up in Mary's boots

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel:

and sang her face off, and she put her spin on it because

Sir Daniel:

you can't listen to that, uh, that Unplugged version of Jay-Z and not

Sir Daniel:

think, "Damn, Jaguar Wright is really putting down some good pieces of

Sir Daniel:

singing on this, um, on this project."

Sir Daniel:

And so you did your big one on that one, Jaguar.

Jay Ray:

you know, my how things change.

Jay Ray:

Um,

Sir Daniel:

My, how they have changed

Jay Ray:

Y'all, but, you know, thank y'all so much for hanging out with us.

Jay Ray:

Like, MTV Unplugged was such an important, um, it was, it

Jay Ray:

was, it was, uh, important TV.

Jay Ray:

it was a way that you could see some of your favorite artists in, um, a

Jay Ray:

context that they weren't normally in.

Jay Ray:

And, um, shout-out to them for, for leaning into it.

Jay Ray:

But, um, and we appreciate y'all for hanging out with us

Jay Ray:

as we, we went down memory lane.

Jay Ray:

What's one of your favorite MTV Unplugged performances?

Jay Ray:

Let us know in the dis- uh, in the comments.

Jay Ray:

And, um, so if you can hear our faces and see our voices, subscribe,

Jay Ray:

share the show with your friends, family, your colleagues, because if

Jay Ray:

you love Queue Points, chances are they will love Queue Points as well.

Jay Ray:

Visit our website at queuepoints.com.

Jay Ray:

That is the, the foundation for all things Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

You can listen to our old, our, our archive shows.

Jay Ray:

You can become a member, you, which gives you all types of perks, uh,

Jay Ray:

and really dope stuff that you get.

Jay Ray:

Um, and you can read our blog, and then make sure that you go ahead and shop

Jay Ray:

our store at store.queuepoints.com.

Jay Ray:

We appreciate y'all.

Jay Ray:

We love

Jay Ray:

y'all

Sir Daniel:

We certainly do.

Sir Daniel:

And like we say at the end of every episode, in this life you have a choice.

Sir Daniel:

You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.

Sir Daniel:

I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray:

And my name is Jay Ray y'all

Sir Daniel:

And this is Queue Points podcast, dropping the

Sir Daniel:

needle on Black music history.

Sir Daniel:

We will see you on the next go-round.

Sir Daniel:

Peace

Jay Ray:

Peace, y'all.

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About the Podcast

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About your hosts

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DJ Sir Daniel

DJ Sir Daniel is a DJ/Selector and part of Atlanta's, all-vinyl crew, Wax Fundamentals. Co-host of the Queue Points podcast, he is an advocate for DJ culture and is passionate about creating atmospheres of inclusivity and jubilation from a Black perspective.

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Jay Ray

Johnnie Ray Kornegay III (Jay Ray) is a podcast consultant and co-host and producer of Queue Points, the Ambie Award-nominated podcast that drops the needle on Black music history. In addition to his duties at Queue Points, he is the Deputy Director of Strategy and Impact for CNP (Counter Narrative Project). A photographer, creative consultant and social commentator, Jay Ray's work is centered around a commitment to telling full and honest stories about communities often ignored.