Episode 162

Ghosts in the Shadows: Ghostwriting and the Hip Hop Ecosystem

Published on: 29th October, 2024

In this episode of Queue Points, DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray dive deep into the world of ghostwriting in hip hop with “Ghosts in the Shadows: Ghostwriting and the Hip Hop Ecosystem.” Discover the hidden influence of ghostwriters on legendary tracks by artists like Diddy, Queen Latifah, and Roxanne Shanté. Learn about the untold contributions of unsung heroes like Mad Skillz and Jadakiss, and how their work has shaped some of hip hop’s most iconic songs. From the legacy of Grandmaster Caz’s rhymes in “Rapper’s Delight” to Apache’s alleged surprising role in “Just Another Day” and “Ladies First,” we uncover the complex stories behind the verses you know and love. 

Topics: #Ghostwriters #HipHop #Rappers #BlackPodcasters #BlackMusic #MusicPodcast

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Transcript
Speaker:

DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome back to another episode

Speaker:

of Queue Points podcast.

Speaker:

I'm DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray:

and my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government

Jay Ray:

as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III.

Jay Ray:

And, Sir Daniel, we are about to have a spooky conversation.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: That's right.

Jay Ray:

You know, it's that time of year and the phantoms and ghouls are hiding out and

Jay Ray:

the ghost writers are hanging out as well.

Jay Ray:

That's right.

Jay Ray:

Ghost writing.

Jay Ray:

Ghost writing is a recurring topic in hip hop circles, Jay Ray.

Jay Ray:

And I have a theory.

Jay Ray:

As to why you want to hear it.

Jay Ray:

yes.

Jay Ray:

Let's hear your theory first.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: All right.

Jay Ray:

So check it.

Jay Ray:

The early days of hip hop were not built on commercial success, right?

Jay Ray:

In other words, album sales.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: MCs got the notion to pick up the mic and start battling

Jay Ray:

each other, it was about showmanship.

Jay Ray:

It was about crowd control.

Jay Ray:

Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Um, and building your reputation around the way, around the hood

Jay Ray:

as like the best party, rocking MC ever.

Jay Ray:

And at that time, the only way you could garner that type of respect

Jay Ray:

was to write your own rhymes.

Jay Ray:

And so the forefathers and foremothers were not educated on the

Jay Ray:

ways of the business of music and that songs often have co creators

Jay Ray:

that was not their, their goal.

Jay Ray:

They didn't know nothing about that.

Jay Ray:

So it was just all about who could rock the party the best and

Jay Ray:

come up with their own rhymes.

Jay Ray:

And that's where, that's what fuels this idea of if you're not writing

Jay Ray:

your own rhymes, you're not a real MC.

Jay Ray:

You know, you're absolutely right.

Jay Ray:

Um, and for, for, for the longest time, hip hop was kind

Jay Ray:

of considered a man's game too.

Jay Ray:

And, you know, men, it's all about competition, right?

Jay Ray:

of that idea of writing your own rhymes is also who's the best MC.

Jay Ray:

It becomes like a whole thing.

Jay Ray:

so you're absolutely correct.

Jay Ray:

Um, but what's really interesting about.

Jay Ray:

idea is from the inception of hip hop as a commercial entity.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Yep.

Jay Ray:

There have always been always y'all other writers and creators on songs.

Jay Ray:

So the most famous example, and this is at the very beginning,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Yep.

Jay Ray:

I'm going to read the lyric quote, check it out on the and.

Jay Ray:

The O V A and the rest is F L Y Kaz.

Jay Ray:

it's a Grandmaster Kaz line.

Jay Ray:

Famously, as the story goes, there's a missing notebook somewhere.

Jay Ray:

of a sudden this Kaz line ended up in Rapper's Delight.

Jay Ray:

This is the first official hip hop commercial hit, right?

Jay Ray:

So at the very beginning, now Kaz was an unwilling ghost writer, right?

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Right.

Jay Ray:

Be clear.

Jay Ray:

no check off of, off of writing this rhyme, right?

Jay Ray:

He only knew that this happened because the song came out.

Jay Ray:

so at the very beginning, there was always kind of this idea of.

Jay Ray:

No, you just need to have a clever rhyme and whoever is going to make the best one

Jay Ray:

of that, you get to have that joint on the song and somebody else can say it.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: That's right.

Jay Ray:

And you know, you made a great point.

Jay Ray:

You brought up the idea of manhood and being able to flex your manhood,

Jay Ray:

uh, on the mic and that, you know, creates another dichotomy within hip

Jay Ray:

hop because of course men weren't the only ones rapping, you know, women

Jay Ray:

came along and we're doing their thing.

Jay Ray:

Um, a lot of times.

Jay Ray:

A lot more vicious on the mic.

Jay Ray:

And of course, you know, we all know the, the mythology and the folklore of Roxanne

Jay Ray:

Shantae being this young dynamo, 12, 13 years old, taking out the neighborhood.

Jay Ray:

Emcees one by one battling one by one, and she garnered that reputation so soon.

Jay Ray:

She became

Jay Ray:

Real talk before, as we get into that too, I think it's also important

Jay Ray:

to note in what you just said, battle rapping and writing a song are different

Jay Ray:

things and rappers talk about that.

Jay Ray:

So Shantae is an absolute beast.

Jay Ray:

Let's be really clear.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: be clear.

Jay Ray:

But battle rap and writing a song are two different kinds of skillsets.

Jay Ray:

So that's when

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: That's correct.

Jay Ray:

That's correct.

Jay Ray:

And she's been, she's gone on the record as saying that being in the

Jay Ray:

studio was not her favorite thing.

Jay Ray:

She was dead.

Jay Ray:

She definitely came from the era of being live on stage, being live in front

Jay Ray:

of people and improvising on the spot.

Jay Ray:

Her and Biz Markie, you know, that song, um, you crew was completely

Jay Ray:

improvised, was completely improvised.

Jay Ray:

Um, the, uh, her, a lot of her early singles were completely

Jay Ray:

improvised, like queen of rocks.

Jay Ray:

And even her answer to the rock to Roxanne, Roxanne was improvised.

Jay Ray:

They, and it was later transcribed and she even had to rerecord her verses

Jay Ray:

because they were off the top of her head.

Jay Ray:

So with that in mind, as she's growing in this.

Jay Ray:

Industry, the industry now of, um, music business of the recording industry.

Jay Ray:

And she's coming upon, um, releasing her second album.

Jay Ray:

You know, things have changed.

Jay Ray:

The landscape has changed.

Jay Ray:

We're in the early nineties.

Jay Ray:

And, um, as the story goes, you know, there was a celebration

Jay Ray:

for women in hip hop called, um, sisters in the name of rap.

Jay Ray:

Which was the very first pay per view rap, um, it wasn't the first,

Jay Ray:

it was Rap Mania came first and then Sisters in the Name of Rap.

Jay Ray:

It's supposed to be all women in rap, um, pay per view event.

Jay Ray:

I was so excited, my mother was not giving up that 9.

Jay Ray:

99 or whatever it was to pay to see.

Jay Ray:

for view.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Hey preview, baby.

Jay Ray:

So she was not willing to do that.

Jay Ray:

So I was watching it and listening to it on scrambled.

Jay Ray:

I can, I can hear it, but I couldn't see it cause it was scrambled.

Jay Ray:

You y'all, y'all come on.

Jay Ray:

Y'all

Jay Ray:

feel me.

Jay Ray:

You know, if you old enough, you remember how that was.

Jay Ray:

So anyway, as the, the, the legend goes, um, shiny was seeing how all of

Jay Ray:

these women were behaving towards her.

Jay Ray:

We're acting like they were better than, and she was like, Hmm.

Jay Ray:

You know, I, I gave birth to all of the, these MCs, you know, I mothered these,

Jay Ray:

these girls, you know, to, to, to, to, to coin a phrase, I mothered all of y'all.

Jay Ray:

And so that sparked this moment between her Chante versus everybody.

Jay Ray:

And at that time she was working.

Jay Ray:

Directly with, uh, uh, another, um, legend by the name of granddaddy, IU,

Jay Ray:

who was also her label mate, uh, a juice crew member, and they've gotten that

Jay Ray:

studio and produced probably one of the most scathing disc records ever.

Jay Ray:

And we've talked about it on this show.

Jay Ray:

Called big mama and granddaddy.

Jay Ray:

I, you is credited with writing this most vicious, this record.

Jay Ray:

He wrote it like, I'm pretty certain they, they, you know, ideas were

Jay Ray:

bouncing off the walls and, you know, he was feeding off of her energy and,

Jay Ray:

you know, the, the, the recalling the stories being backstage, like, This

Jay Ray:

one wants a better dressing room.

Jay Ray:

I gave birth to all of them MCs and that becomes a line in the record.

Jay Ray:

But granddaddy, I, you, as a man has written this verse, this,

Jay Ray:

this record for this woman.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: you see a lot of that happening in hip hop where men are penning

Jay Ray:

rhymes for women, Herbie most famously has written a lot of these records for

Jay Ray:

salt and pepper and so on and so on.

Jay Ray:

And so it's just, I think it's just amazing that in this art called hip

Jay Ray:

hop, uh, where, you know, male bravado is, is King and is, is put, um, center

Jay Ray:

stage all the time that when women come on the mic, a lot of times, They're

Jay Ray:

not, when it comes to the put presenting a record, they're not even allowed to

Jay Ray:

put up, put on, write their own verses.

Jay Ray:

Like there's a dude in the camp that says, you know what?

Jay Ray:

Let me write this for you.

Jay Ray:

This sounds better, even though I'm pretty certain they had their own

Jay Ray:

ideas and during the session, a lot of these records got written by most

Jay Ray:

of the dudes, probably because they.

Jay Ray:

They Bogart their way into getting that credit and saying, nah,

Jay Ray:

this sounds better say this way.

Jay Ray:

Going back to that idea of, you know, the craft of a song, is different,

Jay Ray:

but I do think some of it is, you know, that natural male desire of wanting to

Jay Ray:

have control, especially then, saying, in hip hop, but, um, the idea of.

Jay Ray:

The ghost writer, um, is one that I do remember Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray:

and I know you remember this as well being like a, a, a, no, no,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: A no, no.

Jay Ray:

Wanted to be accused of somebody else writing your rhymes,

Jay Ray:

even though in a lot of cases we could tell by certain people's flows

Jay Ray:

that like, sounds like so and so Oh, they're in the same crew together.

Jay Ray:

Oh, that rhyme was probably written by whoever, whoever.

Jay Ray:

And it's funny how we've evolved.

Jay Ray:

I think we've evolved as listeners.

Jay Ray:

Um, but yeah, when I was young, like, it was like, no, like you, you

Jay Ray:

have to write your own rhyme, right?

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: was a no, no.

Jay Ray:

And so many people said it so often that they forgot that we could read the credits

Jay Ray:

and even the ones that were pro professed that they wrote their own rhymes.

Jay Ray:

A lot of other co writers would show up in the, in the line of notes for their rap.

Jay Ray:

So it was like, Okay, sure.

Jay Ray:

You know, you wrote a lot of your stuff, but it's okay.

Jay Ray:

You have a collaborator.

Jay Ray:

And you know what?

Jay Ray:

Um, this, this topic comes up so much.

Jay Ray:

Remy Ma addressed this topic on ghost of ghost writing on an episode of

Jay Ray:

the math Hoffa show back in 2022.

Jay Ray:

And, and in that moment, she kind of, she deaded it.

Jay Ray:

Now, Remy Ma, she was, she's always been one to say, I write my own rhymes.

Jay Ray:

Can't nobody say it for me better than me.

Jay Ray:

And she still believes that, but she says, but she says plainly in this

Jay Ray:

interview, that it's really not that important in the grand scheme of things.

Jay Ray:

She said, it's not important.

Jay Ray:

She used the, um, the example of Trina,

Jay Ray:

Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: she said, not Trina.

Jay Ray:

Trina is may not be known for being lyrical, but Trina is Trina in the, in hip

Jay Ray:

hop, Trina is Trina in the music industry.

Jay Ray:

She's a, she's a goldmine.

Jay Ray:

She is respected.

Jay Ray:

She's an, she's a legend in the game because she is Trina.

Jay Ray:

So with that being said, Trina.

Jay Ray:

In the grand scheme of things, writing your own rhymes is not that important.

Jay Ray:

It's not that important.

Jay Ray:

It's, you know, we're, we're beating a dead horse here by keep, by still

Jay Ray:

continuing to say, and to profess that, you know, I don't have ghost

Jay Ray:

writers as is, as if it's a badge of honor in this day and age.

Jay Ray:

Um, we wanted to take some time and talk about three, um.

Jay Ray:

Three confirmed ghost writers, but

Jay Ray:

that they've written are we really don't know like a lot of these a couple of them.

Jay Ray:

I think we're like pretty sure of but we wanted to just take some time and

Jay Ray:

talk about three folks who you may or may not know and the songs they

Jay Ray:

may or may not have ghost written

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Hmm.

Jay Ray:

the background.

Jay Ray:

Whoo.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: They are in the background.

Jay Ray:

Um, so if I say the name, Anthony Peaks, it probably won't ring a bell.

Jay Ray:

Right?

Jay Ray:

But you definitely know who Apache is.

Jay Ray:

Oh, I need a gangster with my gear.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Uh, the, a New Jersey native Apache was one of the

Jay Ray:

foundation members of the hip hop collective known as the flavor unit.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: unit is best known for legends, including Mark 45 King,

Jay Ray:

like him Shabazz naughty by nature.

Jay Ray:

And of course the princess of the posse queen Latifah.

Jay Ray:

So as part of the crew, Apache honed his skills as an MC and eventually landed his

Jay Ray:

own record deal with Tommy boy records.

Jay Ray:

And so he gifted us with.

Jay Ray:

With his classic and controversial hit gangsta bitch,

Jay Ray:

which, um, J Ray was singing

Jay Ray:

hmm.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: probably unaware of listener is that not only was Apache's

Jay Ray:

queen Latifah's, um, bodyguard and roadie on a tour roadie, was

Jay Ray:

also a writer of two, not one, but two of her most prolific songs.

Jay Ray:

Just another day.

Jay Ray:

And ladies first, both songs juxtaposed to his hit gangsta

Jay Ray:

bitch are day and night.

Jay Ray:

They Ray in tone and, uh, and subject matter.

Jay Ray:

And it's like, it takes major talent to embody both masculine and feminine

Jay Ray:

energy and rap lyrics, and to make people feel inspired and motivated because.

Jay Ray:

Just Another Day is a, is a wonderful narrative about a

Jay Ray:

day in the life in the hood.

Jay Ray:

And, but the tone is very soft, is very melodic, and Queen Latifah brings most

Jay Ray:

of that, most her energy into that song.

Jay Ray:

But I would have, Never guess that, you know, Apache was the one behind that

Jay Ray:

because the tones are so different, but that's what makes you, that's what makes

Jay Ray:

somebody a dope writer and ladies first.

Jay Ray:

I mean, come on, come on.

Jay Ray:

Would you ever think in a million years that a man wrote that?

Jay Ray:

You collaborated in the writing of that

Jay Ray:

absolutely.

Jay Ray:

I would not have, um, but of course, you know, of course, knowing hip

Jay Ray:

hop, not at all surprising, but yeah.

Jay Ray:

Um, Apache is absolutely a legend and another legend.

Jay Ray:

Um, so the name is Donnie Shaquan Lewis.

Jay Ray:

Shaquan,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: That's

Jay Ray:

know him as Mad Skillz, who now goes by Skillz,

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: right,

Jay Ray:

primarily, but born in Detroit, um, raised in

Jay Ray:

Fayetteville, North Carolina.

Jay Ray:

This is important raised in Fayetteville, North Carolina, but spent his high

Jay Ray:

school years in Richmond, Virginia.

Jay Ray:

So Skillz this interesting mix of experiences, but was really reared by

Jay Ray:

the school of run DMC as like a rapper.

Jay Ray:

So interesting thing is I think Skillz might have the quintessential

Jay Ray:

nine mid to late nineties flow.

Jay Ray:

In hip hop.

Jay Ray:

Like, I feel like when you go back and you listen to Skillz, you're like, Oh, this

Jay Ray:

is the perfect version of what hip hop in the 1990s sounded like on the East coast.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Jay Ray:

a perfect encapsulation of cadence and flow, et cetera.

Jay Ray:

I say that to say, because.

Jay Ray:

It's ubiquitous.

Jay Ray:

So when you think about the songs that Skillz is alleged to have ghost written,

Jay Ray:

you're like, Oh, I can't hear that.

Jay Ray:

I can't hear that.

Jay Ray:

So Skillz, um, before we get into the two songs, um, that I want to

Jay Ray:

mention, um, Skillz is super famous.

Jay Ray:

Um, for a couple of things, the year in wrap up,

Jay Ray:

was doing for like many years, but also in 2000, On raucous sidebar, we need to

Jay Ray:

do a raucous, I think show at some point.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: That was moment for sure.

Jay Ray:

a moment in 2000 on raucous.

Jay Ray:

He released a song called ghost writer.

Jay Ray:

Now he doesn't name any MCs in the actual song, right?

Jay Ray:

But there is an uncensored version where he was live does name names.

Jay Ray:

So here's the names that Skillz mentions that he's written for.

Jay Ray:

Diddy.

Jay Ray:

Of course, he says Puff Daddy, then Foxy Brown, Mace, Will

Jay Ray:

Smith, and Jermaine Dupri.

Jay Ray:

Now, he doesn't say any of this in the song.

Jay Ray:

You can find it in a live version where he mentions this.

Jay Ray:

And this is all alleged.

Jay Ray:

This is a rapper.

Jay Ray:

It's bravado.

Jay Ray:

We don't know if any of this is true, but there are two songs.

Jay Ray:

There are two people in this list that folks are pretty

Jay Ray:

sure, like, no, no, no, no.

Jay Ray:

I definitely wrote those.

Jay Ray:

I need a girl part one.

Jay Ray:

Diddy from his first record and then, uh, lost and found, which was

Jay Ray:

the title track from Will Smith's.

Jay Ray:

I think this is like a 2005 album.

Jay Ray:

Um, and if you listen to both of those records, you can actually

Jay Ray:

hear Skillz as flow in them.

Jay Ray:

What's dope about Skillz is he is highly respected.

Jay Ray:

He's an industry veteran.

Jay Ray:

There's a new picture of him and Q tip together at the rock and

Jay Ray:

roll hall of fame, uh, induction ceremony for tribe called quest.

Jay Ray:

Um, so there's tons and tons of interviews of him.

Jay Ray:

So I suggest folks go and check it out because this is a man who has

Jay Ray:

literally been able to have a career in hip hop being behind the scenes

Jay Ray:

for most of it, being a ghost writer.

Jay Ray:

Sidebar.

Jay Ray:

He spent some time on the road with Missy Elliot and his skill with Missy was, he

Jay Ray:

was like, yo, Missy was a studio rat.

Jay Ray:

She didn't enjoy doing shows.

Jay Ray:

So she would take me out there because I could remember lyrics.

Jay Ray:

It's like, Missy couldn't remember the lyrics.

Jay Ray:

So Missy would do part of the song and then she would cue it to Skillz to like

Jay Ray:

finish the rap, because he was like, he was like off the top of the dome,

Jay Ray:

he could remember stuff really easy.

Jay Ray:

So.

Jay Ray:

toured with Missy, um, uh, when she was out doing shows in the

Jay Ray:

like late nineties and early two thousands for like a long time.

Jay Ray:

So for those of you that saw Missy back then, you probably saw with her.

Jay Ray:

Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: doing it.

Jay Ray:

Um, most recently I saw him with LaKali 47 a couple of years ago on

Jay Ray:

her, um, tour and doing the same thing.

Jay Ray:

So you're absolutely right.

Jay Ray:

Um, there's so much overlap within the industry.

Jay Ray:

So Skillz wrote for Diddy

Jay Ray:

Mm

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: and there's another well known rapper

Jay Ray:

who's written a lot for Diddy.

Jay Ray:

he?

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: And this gentleman, and it's so funny, like he, I'm talking

Jay Ray:

about Jason Terrence Phillips, but you all know him better as Jada, Jada kiss.

Jay Ray:

You know, um, Jada kiss is like, and arguably one of the nicest.

Jay Ray:

when you hear those arguments of top five dead or alive, Jadakiss

Jay Ray:

is always in that argument because, I mean, the man is dead nice.

Jay Ray:

Like that, that Lox versus, um, Dipset

Jay Ray:

Mm

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: just I mean, that if that didn't solidify his place on the

Jay Ray:

Mount Rushmore of MCs, I don't know what else will because he completely

Jay Ray:

obliterated that moment with, um, cadence, with breath control, with

Jay Ray:

The punch lines was immaculate.

Jay Ray:

It's just, you know, the freestyle game is wild, but Jada

Jay Ray:

is not just a freestyle rapper.

Jay Ray:

Jadakiss is nice with that pen

Jay Ray:

Jay Ray, you know, a lot of the songs that we danced to in the mid nineties,

Jay Ray:

a lot of bad boy hits specifically were penned by your boy Jadakiss,

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Senorita,

Jay Ray:

Yep.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: um, Diddy's verse on victory.

Jay Ray:

Um, He's alleged to have co written both biggie and mason's verse on more money

Jay Ray:

more problems Like he's done it all he's done quite a bit for that label and so

Jay Ray:

that makes me understand why like they were Really vehement about getting their

Jay Ray:

money over there because it's like I built this house on the lyrics I wrote.

Jay Ray:

Absolutely.

Jay Ray:

Um, I don't want to also underscore to that.

Jay Ray:

This is not the case for Jadakiss, but for some MCs, you know, the

Jay Ray:

industry is different, right?

Jay Ray:

You know what I'm saying?

Jay Ray:

And it gravitates to certain personalities in a different way.

Jay Ray:

And I think it's dope when you have the combination of the two where a

Jay Ray:

person is like, no, no, no, no, no.

Jay Ray:

I can also write and I can be out front.

Jay Ray:

And I want to be out front.

Jay Ray:

The thing about Skillz is he's always been really clear.

Jay Ray:

He's like, I'm not real.

Jay Ray:

He was not real dead set about being the artist at the center

Jay Ray:

of the stage on the mic.

Jay Ray:

He could do that, but that wasn't like the main thing.

Jay Ray:

Jadakiss on the other hand is interested in that and was good at doing it.

Jay Ray:

So I also understand that concept as well of, for many folks who write, this

Jay Ray:

is the way that they earn a living.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes Right

Jay Ray:

be able to feel like they could sell it.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Jay Ray:

But if you're a talented MC and you can write this idea of ghost,

Jay Ray:

this idea of writing for other people might be a way to make money.

Jay Ray:

Here's the problem though.

Jay Ray:

The problem though, is that short term money, right?

Jay Ray:

Unless your name is on the record and you are actually getting

Jay Ray:

publishing from that song.

Jay Ray:

And in many cases, these ghost writers names are nowhere to be found on a record.

Jay Ray:

You don't know that they ghost wrote it.

Jay Ray:

So if that's true, You may not be getting paid on the back end, right?

Jay Ray:

So it's a wonderful thing to keep folks working for some folks that need to be.

Jay Ray:

But I also question, um, you know, folks, names not being on the record.

Jay Ray:

And we should also note real quick, as we, we, we wrap that this is not exclusive.

Jay Ray:

To hip hop that famous example we share from uh, uh, Andrea martin who

Jay Ray:

basically ghost wrote show me love right

Jay Ray:

The they was like yo We'll give you what three hundred dollars or something

Jay Ray:

crazy to be like yo If you could come up with a melody like she's just doing

Jay Ray:

the demo If you could come up with a melody and if you could come up with a

Jay Ray:

verse We're gonna give you some extra money right her name ain't on that song

Jay Ray:

But she basically ghost wrote that song

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: and sang the reference track and which is,

Jay Ray:

and I think that's the, um, I guess the, the, the reckoning that's

Jay Ray:

happening now is that demo tracks and reference tracks are leaking.

Jay Ray:

So it's like people are hearing, oh, That's such and such.

Jay Ray:

Oh, so they did write that.

Jay Ray:

They actually sang the reference track for your favorite hit record.

Jay Ray:

And, um, I want people, I want folks to go back and listen to our episode with

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis, when he describes what it's like being in the studio

Jay Ray:

and how you can safeguard yourself in these instances of collaboration.

Jay Ray:

And making sure that you do get credit.

Jay Ray:

Now, some, a lot of these people didn't get credit because of the person they

Jay Ray:

were working with, um, just omitted their names because they could, because

Jay Ray:

they, they were scrupulous unscrupulous and had that kind of power, but then

Jay Ray:

there are these other instances where you're collaborating, there needs to

Jay Ray:

be split sheets created in that moment.

Jay Ray:

And all of that, you can find out in that episode with Brian Patrick

Jay Ray:

Davis on our wonderfully large.

Jay Ray:

Repertoire of shows here at Queue Points podcast, but real quick,

Jay Ray:

as we wrap up, Jay Ray, um,

Jay Ray:

can hip hop music release the stigma of ghostwriting and

Jay Ray:

fully embrace collaboration?

Jay Ray:

I think so.

Jay Ray:

I think we are in an interesting moment where, um, folks have.

Jay Ray:

More of an appreciation for the importance of collaboration.

Jay Ray:

So I do think it can, I think what it's going to come down to is can, em, MCs will

Jay Ray:

have to find a new, another dig right now.

Jay Ray:

It can still be a dig.

Jay Ray:

If I might run, if I write my rhymes and you don't write your

Jay Ray:

rhymes, that can be a dig, right?

Jay Ray:

You know what I'm saying?

Jay Ray:

But that person who doesn't write their rhymes also needs to

Jay Ray:

be able to, to respond to that.

Jay Ray:

I think at the end of the day, like Remy was talking about,

Jay Ray:

I don't think it matters

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah,

Jay Ray:

it hasn't stopped making hits since the beginning.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: that's right.

Jay Ray:

had it.

Jay Ray:

I think it's actually more important that we acknowledge ghostwriters so

Jay Ray:

that they're not ghostwriting at all.

Jay Ray:

need these people's names on the credits so that they're them.

Jay Ray:

Today and their families are reaping the benefits of the hard work that they did.

Jay Ray:

And if we keep this idea of ghost writers alive, we keep this music industry, uh,

Jay Ray:

in the same perpetual cycle that it's in where people are dying penniless and

Jay Ray:

they don't need to, because guess what?

Jay Ray:

You wrote a hit song.

Jay Ray:

You need to have your name on that song.

Jay Ray:

So I feel like that's the fight.

Jay Ray:

Like the fight is no, no ghost writers.

Jay Ray:

Everybody gets credit.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Come to find out.

Jay Ray:

Everybody ate.

Jay Ray:

I don't think there's anything left to be said.

Jay Ray:

Like Jay Ray, you, you really stuck a pin in that.

Jay Ray:

Um, thank you all for checking out this episode of Queue Points podcast.

Jay Ray:

Jay Ray, just let the folks know how these ghost writers over here

Jay Ray:

can, can survive and keep Putting out these, um, this wonderful

Jay Ray:

project called Queue Points Podcast.

Jay Ray:

Yo, y'all.

Jay Ray:

So if you can see our faces, if you can hear our voices, thank you so much.

Jay Ray:

We appreciate you.

Jay Ray:

Hit the subscribe button wherever you are.

Jay Ray:

Also, if there's a notification bell, hit that too so you can

Jay Ray:

know when Queue Points drops.

Jay Ray:

New stuff.

Jay Ray:

us.

Jay Ray:

We really appreciate it.

Jay Ray:

You can buy us a coffee.

Jay Ray:

We would really, really dig that.

Jay Ray:

You can get additional content.

Jay Ray:

On our Patreon.

Jay Ray:

Visit our website at Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

com where you can sign up for our newsletter and read our blog.

Jay Ray:

Thank you so much.

Jay Ray:

We really appreciate y'all.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Oh, like I say, at the end of every show in

Jay Ray:

this life, you have a choice.

Jay Ray:

You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.

Jay Ray:

I'm DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray:

My name is Jay Ray y'all.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: and this has been Queue Points Podcast, dropping

Jay Ray:

the needle on black music history.

Jay Ray:

We'll see you on the next go round.

Jay Ray:

Peace.

Jay Ray:

Peace y'all.

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About the Podcast

Queue Points
Queue Points is the Black Podcasting Award and Ambie Award nominated music podcast that is dropping the needle on Black Music history and celebrating Black music through meaningful dialogue. The show is hosted by DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray. Visit https://queuepoints.com to learn more.

About your hosts

DJ Sir Daniel

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DJ Sir Daniel is a DJ/Selector and part of Atlanta's, all-vinyl crew, Wax Fundamentals. Co-host of the Queue Points podcast, he is an advocate for DJ culture and is passionate about creating atmospheres of inclusivity and jubilation from a Black perspective.

Jay Ray

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Johnnie Ray Kornegay III (Jay Ray) is a podcast consultant and co-host and producer of Queue Points, the Ambie Award-nominated podcast that drops the needle on Black music history. In addition to his duties at Queue Points, he is the Deputy Director of Strategy and Impact for CNP (Counter Narrative Project). A photographer, creative consultant and social commentator, Jay Ray's work is centered around a commitment to telling full and honest stories about communities often ignored.