Episode 6

Comebacks and Second Chances

On this reflective Queue Points episode, Jay Ray and DJ Sir Daniel unpack the power of comebacks and second chances in Black music and culture. Delving into the stories of Tina Turner, Diana Ross, Mariah Carey, and Whitney Houston, the hosts explore why comeback stories resonate so deeply and what industry, societal, and personal factors shape the ability of artists to bounce back. With candid talk on ageism, cancel culture, double standards, and the unique grace (or lack thereof) extended to Black women artists, this episode challenges listeners to reconsider forgiveness, growth, and the lasting impact of musical legends.

Topics Covered:

  • Iconic comeback stories: Tina Turner, Diana Ross, Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Whitney Houston
  • Personal reflections on second chances and late blooming in the industry
  • Ageism, racism, and misogyny in music and their role in artist setbacks
  • Cancel culture, stan culture, and accountability in Black music
  • Double standards in grace and forgiveness—especially toward Black women artists (e.g., Chrisette Michele vs. others)
  • Do artists, albums, or groups deserve second chances, and why?
  • The evolving industry: social media’s impact on reputation, criticism, and comebacks
  • How life experience and growth shape artistry and public perception
  • Listener engagement: sharing stories of favorite comebacks or overlooked second chances

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Transcript
Jay Ray:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

You know, every time I see that, see that opening real, it makes me think of one

Sir Daniel:

of those, like in living color sketches, where it's like homeboy from outer

Sir Daniel:

space or, you know, the homeboy network where, you know, everything was just all

Sir Daniel:

bright beats in the intro and whatnot.

Sir Daniel:

I love.

Sir Daniel:

There's a real horse.

Sir Daniel:

Shout out again to DJ Johnny dynamite again.

Sir Daniel:

Who's um, and just, just if you're in the Atlanta area, this Sunday, come on out

Sir Daniel:

to the, I lounge, um, in the east Atlanta village because vinyl and vibes is back.

Sir Daniel:

The city

Jay Ray:

come through.

Sir Daniel:

Events concerts.

Sir Daniel:

We back, we in there, you know, so Vineland vibes is back.

Sir Daniel:

You know, it's a free event.

Sir Daniel:

Um, hit up Johnny dynamite on Instagram.

Sir Daniel:

So you could find out or vinyl environments on Instagram.

Sir Daniel:

So you could find out more about the event coming up this Satcher day.

Sir Daniel:

But Jay Ray, it's time for what's for cue points.

Sir Daniel:

As I said, that's Jay Ray, um, DJ, sir, Daniel.

Sir Daniel:

This is Q points.

Sir Daniel:

Remember, you can always catch up with us every week because we come here.

Sir Daniel:

We talk about.

Sir Daniel:

Everything music oriented and music related.

Sir Daniel:

We want to have meaningful dialogue about the global impact of black music.

Sir Daniel:

Tell them where they could find a straight rate.

Jay Ray:

I can tell they can find us everywhere.

Jay Ray:

So not too, but you can tell us stuff too.

Jay Ray:

You can tell us stuff by emailing us at Q.

Jay Ray:

Points thus show that the letter Q points the show@gmail.com.

Jay Ray:

You can follow us on Instagram at cue points and on Facebook

Jay Ray:

and Twitter at Q show.

Sir Daniel:

We're finally out of mercury, mercury retrograde.

Jay Ray:

That was the one.

Sir Daniel:

Well, you know, after it's finished, there's still a little shadowing

Sir Daniel:

after it's done, but I got to tell you this morning, I woke up and it was so

Sir Daniel:

clear to me how this show was gonna run.

Sir Daniel:

And I, I have to be honest with you.

Sir Daniel:

I got a little emotional.

Sir Daniel:

Uh, preparing for this show, because today we're talking about second chances.

Sir Daniel:

We're talking about comebacks and at someone who, you know, I can say, I

Sir Daniel:

consider myself a late bloomer on my.

Sir Daniel:

You know, as someone who, who is made attempts to get in the

Sir Daniel:

music industry to work in radio, um, the whole deejaying thing.

Sir Daniel:

Matter of fact, I started, um, a friend of mine and I, we

Sir Daniel:

started podcasting back in 2008

Jay Ray:

before jeez of podcasts.

Sir Daniel:

But before the whole boom happened, you know what I'm saying?

Sir Daniel:

So it's like, to me, this is a second chance what we have going on here.

Sir Daniel:

And so it made me really grateful and insightful about being able to

Sir Daniel:

do things again, you know, sometimes things happen in divine timing.

Sir Daniel:

And a lot of what we're seeing now, music wise is that, you know, last week we

Sir Daniel:

talked about how this particular, this country in particular, we like a combat.

Sir Daniel:

You know, we love a comeback story.

Sir Daniel:

And when we thinking about musicians and artists, even albums, I want to

Sir Daniel:

throw this question out real quick.

Sir Daniel:

Is there an artist, group or album that you believe deserves a second chance?

Jay Ray:

Oh, that's a great question.

Sir Daniel:

So send your responses to queue points, the show@gmail.com

Sir Daniel:

or you can drop your responses in the comments section right there.

Sir Daniel:

Um, but yeah, I, you know, like I said, last week's episode, the point was made

Sir Daniel:

that unfortunately we treat black artists and black music as if it's disposable.

Jay Ray:

Absolutely.

Jay Ray:

You know,

Sir Daniel:

especially after it reaches a certain age.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

Today.

Sir Daniel:

It's like we get rid of musicians if they do or say something that we don't like.

Jay Ray:

So

Sir Daniel:

question.

Sir Daniel:

So can we criticize black art, like without throwing the baby out

Sir Daniel:

with the water, with the bathroom,

Jay Ray:

that's the important part of this conversation?

Jay Ray:

And I think, um, one of the things we see it a lot with Stan culture in

Jay Ray:

this current moment where it's like, Disagree with something that someone

Jay Ray:

has done without throwing all of it out.

Jay Ray:

I have some exceptions to that.

Jay Ray:

There's some very specific,

Sir Daniel:

very specific, very specific

Jay Ray:

exceptions.

Jay Ray:

And y'all could probably guess what those who those exceptions are at this point.

Jay Ray:

But I do think it's important.

Jay Ray:

I've stepped from the name of love to their music in the past.

Sir Daniel:

And we believe we could fly everything

Jay Ray:

I used to believe I can fly.

Jay Ray:

So I think that important point of being able to criticize have disagreements with

Jay Ray:

what folks have done without just tossing it all away is incredibly important in

Jay Ray:

particular with black folks, because, um, We ha we see society do that to us.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Jay Ray:

We see society, white culture and white supremacy takes black culture and

Jay Ray:

manufactures it and sells it back to us.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Jay Ray:

And when they're done with that, they will just move on to a new thing.

Jay Ray:

But we really it's my feeling that we can't do that to each other.

Jay Ray:

It's we can,

Sir Daniel:

we can't, we shouldn't.

Sir Daniel:

Um, like I said before, we take things like age, you know,

Sir Daniel:

especially to our black women,

Jay Ray:

especially

Sir Daniel:

we use age as a means of discriminating against them and saying

Sir Daniel:

whether or not we want to see them.

Sir Daniel:

In a certain light as an artist.

Sir Daniel:

Well, listen, last week on June 17th, 77.

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

I said 77 year old Diana Ross, the boss announced that she is releasing

Sir Daniel:

a new album over original music.

Sir Daniel:

It's been 22 years since she released, um, every day is a new day.

Jay Ray:

Every day's a new day.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

And.

Sir Daniel:

Today, the boss wants to tell all her lifelong friends, fans.

Sir Daniel:

Thank you.

Sir Daniel:

And so here you have the cover art for thank you, which is a single is out now.

Sir Daniel:

And what for, what do you think of the song, Jerry?

Jay Ray:

I think the song is exactly what she should be doing

Jay Ray:

at this point in her career.

Jay Ray:

I think every in fact, every day is a new day.

Jay Ray:

Was the same thing.

Jay Ray:

It's what she should have been doing at that moment.

Jay Ray:

When that album was released, it was music was changing.

Jay Ray:

We still had CDs then, um, music was changing.

Jay Ray:

Um, but it's what she should have been doing.

Jay Ray:

I think this is the perfect time.

Jay Ray:

To do this and say, thanks, you know, she's 77.

Jay Ray:

We saw Tina Turner do it, right?

Jay Ray:

Say thank you to our American fans.

Jay Ray:

I need to go and live the rest of my life.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Jay Ray:

Um, so I do think our, our legends are taking the opportunity to

Jay Ray:

say, you know what, I'm good.

Jay Ray:

I can pass the Baton.

Jay Ray:

Now let me, let me say thanks.

Jay Ray:

And, um, if y'all, haven't seen.

Jay Ray:

The music video is just heartwarming because it's Diana and all of

Jay Ray:

her glory through the years on stage, just reaching out to people

Jay Ray:

and I can see you over there.

Jay Ray:

I see you.

Jay Ray:

Thank you.

Jay Ray:

You know what I'm saying?

Jay Ray:

It's, it's exactly what needs to happen.

Jay Ray:

And if you haven't seen it,

Sir Daniel:

That same big, wide smile that you know,

Sir Daniel:

and you know what, you're absolutely right.

Sir Daniel:

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Sir Daniel:

This is the song is age appropriate.

Sir Daniel:

Yep.

Sir Daniel:

It's it's classic.

Sir Daniel:

From a programming standpoint, you could drop it in any format right now.

Sir Daniel:

You can drop it on any format and it will succeed.

Sir Daniel:

It will, you know, she's in this.

Sir Daniel:

It's appropriate.

Sir Daniel:

I think it, first of all, it was recorded at her home studio.

Sir Daniel:

So you could feel, you could feel the crunch, the love and the

Sir Daniel:

crunchiness that that is Diana Ross.

Sir Daniel:

You know, she's giving, she's still grand and glamorous, but she

Sir Daniel:

she's got a little of that cookie auntie that we all like running.

Sir Daniel:

So I think it's absolutely wonderful and I'm really happy about it.

Sir Daniel:

So shout out to Diana Ross before I forget.

Sir Daniel:

You know what we doing this.

Sir Daniel:

This Friday night, June 25th, you better have your Amazon prime subscription up to

Sir Daniel:

date, because if we going to talk about comebacks, somebody that has had numerous

Sir Daniel:

comebacks setbacks and has come back and proven herself time and time again,

Sir Daniel:

Mary J Blige, the, my light documentary

Jay Ray:

that's right.

Jay Ray:

Comes out this week.

Sir Daniel:

Comes out Friday night.

Sir Daniel:

So if you're talking about somebody who has been through it and she, you know,

Sir Daniel:

is still a young woman, but has made such an impact on the game and has carved her

Sir Daniel:

own lane out in this thing that we call them black music and the music industry.

Sir Daniel:

So I just wanted to give that quick note about Mary and, um, the documentary on

Sir Daniel:

Friday night, but yeah, you know, back to Diana Ross, and you mentioned Tina

Sir Daniel:

Turner, I, you know, The message to me is that there is no master timeline.

Sir Daniel:

You know,

Jay Ray:

there's

Sir Daniel:

no master timeline for all of us to follow at the same time.

Sir Daniel:

We're not all gonna follow the same route.

Sir Daniel:

And that's what the, these artists and this music reflects to me.

Sir Daniel:

And again, I told you I'm a serial late bloomer.

Sir Daniel:

So I relate to the notion that.

Sir Daniel:

It doesn't matter what stage in life you are.

Sir Daniel:

You can be a conduit for some type of magic, you know?

Jay Ray:

Absolutely.

Jay Ray:

I mean, especially with life experience, I'm sorry not to cut you off, sir.

Jay Ray:

Daniel, the, the experiences that we have, I actually think as we get

Jay Ray:

older, like your ability to kind of spread magic becomes more pronounced

Jay Ray:

because you're able to bring all of the.

Jay Ray:

Youthful IX, these experiences that you had in the past to your perception and

Jay Ray:

your, in your present as an older person.

Jay Ray:

And I feel like you can just sprinkle all kinds of magic on the world as you get

Jay Ray:

older and be able to really impact young folks because all there's so many young

Jay Ray:

people that want folks to look up to.

Jay Ray:

So, no, I believe you're absolutely right.

Jay Ray:

It's there's no timeline.

Jay Ray:

There's no age for them.

Sir Daniel:

And it's, you know, that kind of thinking sounds

Sir Daniel:

real if serial and other worldly.

Sir Daniel:

And, but when I think about being a theory of, of, of a worldly, you

Sir Daniel:

can't talk about having multiple lives and not talking about Tina Turner.

Jay Ray:

No, you can't.

Jay Ray:

I mean, if y'all, haven't seen that documentary, see it, see it,

Sir Daniel:

please.

Sir Daniel:

You got to see the HBO documentary on Tina Turner.

Sir Daniel:

Like you, this woman.

Sir Daniel:

If we're going to talk about comebacks, right in 1984 to Turner was our age.

Sir Daniel:

Let's just be real quiet in 1984, when she dropped private

Sir Daniel:

dancer, she was our age in 84.

Sir Daniel:

That's 27.

Sir Daniel:

No, no.

Sir Daniel:

And that's after being in the industry for 27 years, like she, her, she

Sir Daniel:

joined Turner's review in 1956.

Sir Daniel:

And it wasn't until 1984, that she hit a major milestone in a major

Sir Daniel:

comeback with private dancer.

Sir Daniel:

Let me just run it down real quick.

Sir Daniel:

It won in 1985, it won best female rock performance, 1985, best female pop

Sir Daniel:

performance record of the year song of the year in the United States alone.

Sir Daniel:

The song, the record went five times.

Sir Daniel:

And in 2020, the album was selected by the library of Congress for preservation

Sir Daniel:

in the national recording registry for cultural significance, like our age,

Sir Daniel:

you know, where this is a youth driven culture at our age, these kids are

Sir Daniel:

telling them as you know, y'all need.

Sir Daniel:

To the left to the left, all that stuff you talking about, that's old.

Sir Daniel:

It don't matter, but she was our age when she hit her biggest stri.

Jay Ray:

Ooh.

Jay Ray:

Oh, that's inspirational.

Jay Ray:

That is inspirational.

Jay Ray:

And when you, when you think about it, um, in particular in the documentary,

Jay Ray:

they talk, she talks about this, the focus, because once again, she had

Jay Ray:

the experience, she was able to bring all of that experience to the point

Jay Ray:

of, I want to be a rock star now.

Jay Ray:

That's what I want to do.

Jay Ray:

I've been a soul and R and B star.

Jay Ray:

I want to be a rock star now, and I know that I can do it.

Sir Daniel:

Absolutely

Jay Ray:

that's experience and age and wisdom and competence in who you are.

Sir Daniel:

That's it.

Sir Daniel:

Can't.

Sir Daniel:

Can you imagine.

Sir Daniel:

Being that record executive that got on the phone and wanted to drop her from

Sir Daniel:

Capitol records before that happened.

Sir Daniel:

And then you referred to queen Tina Turner as an old N-word douchebag.

Jay Ray:

So lutely, like, I love that they put that in there and, you know,

Jay Ray:

kept that history because that's the type of history that folks want to burry.

Jay Ray:

We need to remember that.

Jay Ray:

That's what that white executive said about.

Jay Ray:

And to far for them to be like, we going to show you better than we can

Jay Ray:

tell you, but then you know what?

Jay Ray:

This is bringing up, sir, Daniel.

Jay Ray:

It is this idea of needing people around you that love and support you.

Jay Ray:

Through all of this stuff.

Jay Ray:

I love being on this journey with you, because I know that we

Jay Ray:

have the we're sharing the same vision about where we want to go.

Jay Ray:

So when you have people in your corner, but you know, it

Jay Ray:

takes you a while to get there.

Jay Ray:

Like you have to have a lot of experiences where you screw it up, you

Jay Ray:

kind of messing with the wrong folks.

Jay Ray:

It's not the right folks, but when you get that stuff, right, man, the people

Jay Ray:

could get on the phone and say something.

Jay Ray:

And then the people in your corner is like, bump that we got a record to drop.

Sir Daniel:

Exactly.

Sir Daniel:

They said no, no, no.

Sir Daniel:

But here we got, we got racism age-ism and massaging me.

Sir Daniel:

They're quite the throttle.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

Credible.

Sir Daniel:

And they all, and they always seem to pop up together

Sir Daniel:

at the same time, you know?

Sir Daniel:

And can you imagine, so like we learned the ugly truth

Sir Daniel:

about Tina Turner's journey.

Sir Daniel:

Decades later after it happened.

Sir Daniel:

Right.

Sir Daniel:

Can you imagine if it all happened in real time?

Sir Daniel:

Like how are we watched Mariah Carey go through her little upward

Sir Daniel:

rise and then crash and burn.

Sir Daniel:

And it happened all in just real time.

Sir Daniel:

It was so real that it happened on TRL.

Speaker:

You're

:

a superstar.

:

You just want

:

ice cream to kids and they all know ice cream is important.

:

You know what I'm saying?

:

Yes.

:

It's the simple things in life.

:

We often overlook.

:

Exactly.

:

You can have drama all day long, whatever we all do, these

:

things, you know what I'm saying?

:

But the problem is if you don't have ice cream in your life, sometimes

:

just might go a little bit crazy.

:

That's a metaphor for a lot.

:

Like my shirt.

:

This is what you're doing was this Carson, Carson might, you know, we

:

might do a clothing line or something.

:

So perhaps like this could be a side of it.

:

That of course would be the girl's division of our clothing line.

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I could wear this, what's wrong with a guy wearing all types of people.

:

This is a woman here who was sold at what?

:

Over 140 million records.

:

I don't know.

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All I know is where's the cash, cause it aint in my bank account.

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All I know is I'm just trying to, like, I just want to one day off when I can go.

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And look at rainbows and like eat ice cream and maybe

:

learn how to ride a bicycle.

Sir Daniel:

You know, that was that game.

Sir Daniel:

That was so much fodder.

Sir Daniel:

It was fodder for months, you know, to the media outlets.

Sir Daniel:

Of course it was SNL had a field day with it, you know, but when you

Sir Daniel:

think about what Mariah Carey was going through, she was literally.

Sir Daniel:

She just literally got free from a marriage, a contractual agreement because

Sir Daniel:

the marriage and the contractual agreement were all intertwined because she was

Sir Daniel:

married to Tommy Mattola, who was the head of Columbia records at the time.

Sir Daniel:

And then, um, so she's, she's about to have her own, um, full length theater,

Sir Daniel:

debut of glitter and in the soundtrack.

Sir Daniel:

Album comes out with that.

Speaker:

Yep.

Sir Daniel:

And it bomb, it's a glitter bomb.

Sir Daniel:

It's a good, for lack of a better term.

Sir Daniel:

And like, first of all, confession, I've never seen it.

Jay Ray:

We have to watch glitter.

Jay Ray:

I have seen glitter.

Jay Ray:

I I've always in glitter once.

Jay Ray:

There's a lot of walking in glitter.

Jay Ray:

It's a very,

Sir Daniel:

but if it's in New York, you know, you're walking

Sir Daniel:

a lot in New York, right.

Jay Ray:

And you're walking a lot in this film.

Jay Ray:

Uh, yeah, I mean that time.

Jay Ray:

So watching that clip back today with today, With today's mindset with

Jay Ray:

today's, um, with my eyes now you see.

Jay Ray:

The lady just, she needed a break.

Jay Ray:

Like it was, uh, it was time for a really long vacation, away from the spotlight

Jay Ray:

away from handlers away from all of that.

Jay Ray:

Just some time away.

Jay Ray:

Cause she, and she talked about it at the very end.

Jay Ray:

Like I just want some time to go and eat ice cream and look at rainbows.

Jay Ray:

Like that's really.

Jay Ray:

Like, we all need that.

Jay Ray:

And you could see that that is what she needed at that moment.

Jay Ray:

And at the level she was asked, she couldn't get it.

Sir Daniel:

She couldn't get it.

Sir Daniel:

You Carson I'm the host of TRL at the time, clearly was completely

Sir Daniel:

thrown by her appearance and.

Sir Daniel:

You're also one of the biggest star and I'm pretty certain, you know,

Sir Daniel:

you're the host of the show and you've got producers in everything and

Sir Daniel:

nobody people know people, somebody knew that was going to happen, but

Sir Daniel:

they didn't bother to tell him.

Sir Daniel:

So you can tell he was asleep, you know, slightly annoyed, but he can't

Sir Daniel:

comprehend the fact that this woman is a mega star, which is the lens

Sir Daniel:

that we watch these people through.

Sir Daniel:

Right.

Sir Daniel:

We can't comprehend.

Sir Daniel:

That they're just human beings that are going through a, a wildly

Sir Daniel:

significant experience where more people have to know who they are

Sir Daniel:

and they happened to be an artist.

Sir Daniel:

So, so that was what, 2001.

Sir Daniel:

So you had a bunch of world experiences happening including nine

Sir Daniel:

11, which I really think somebody needs to talk about what nine 11

Sir Daniel:

did to them, to the music industry.

Sir Daniel:

There were a lot of albums that were supposed to come out that year.

Sir Daniel:

That really kind of suffered because of that whole, we went

Sir Daniel:

through a tragedy in this country.

Speaker:

Yep.

Jay Ray:

Yep.

Sir Daniel:

So there's that.

Sir Daniel:

And then you just, you know, four years later though, we

Sir Daniel:

get the emancipation of Mimi,

Jay Ray:

which is Bob, it's a whole backup.

Sir Daniel:

From, from no skips as the kids like to say no skips, like

Sir Daniel:

from the first single, you know, which is, and her team backup with

Sir Daniel:

Jermaine Dupri, getting with NetSuite, she had all the right producers come

Sir Daniel:

to work with her and it paid off.

Sir Daniel:

She felt she was in a whole new deal.

Sir Daniel:

She, at this point, she's on what.

Jay Ray:

I think it was island

Sir Daniel:

island, Def jam she's on an island Delta.

Sir Daniel:

And so she's in a completely new deal.

Sir Daniel:

She's out of that relationship.

Sir Daniel:

So she's able to, I mean, and you could feel it on the songs.

Sir Daniel:

What's the first song

Jay Ray:

was the first single.

Sir Daniel:

Was it the first thing I thought?

Sir Daniel:

Uh it's like, that was the first single

Jay Ray:

it's like that may have been, oh my God.

Jay Ray:

I forgot that was it, man.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

I mean, the song says it it's like she says,

Sir Daniel:

I'm ready to just pour it up

Sir Daniel:

and have fun.

Jay Ray:

That was hot.

Sir Daniel:

That album went on to go six times platinum, like.

Sir Daniel:

If you're talking about a list of comebacks, they actually have that

Sir Daniel:

album on the list of biggest comebacks music comebacks in the history of music.

Sir Daniel:

And we belong together, went on to win five billboard music awards.

Sir Daniel:

And in 2006, a massive patient got 10 Grammy nominations.

Sir Daniel:

She wanted for best contemporary RMB, best female R and B vocal

Sir Daniel:

performance and best RV song.

Sir Daniel:

So I think it was quite safe to say that she recovered from that

Sir Daniel:

glitter bomb, like the time.

Jay Ray:

Well, here's the thing.

Jay Ray:

So she recovered from the glitter bomb and then.

Jay Ray:

That's when the other stuff I think, cause we talked about kind of the, the

Jay Ray:

throttle of misogyny age-ism and you know, all of that stuff, because then

Jay Ray:

I think it was the E equals MC squared.

Jay Ray:

Um, and the touch, my body stuff, it got different.

Jay Ray:

So it was interesting coming out of the emancipation of Mimi into

Jay Ray:

kind of the next phase of it.

Jay Ray:

What I love is this, though what I love is, um, her talent always shines through.

Jay Ray:

And that's the thing to remember with all of these folks.

Jay Ray:

We talked about Diana.

Jay Ray:

Um, you know, the talent,

Sir Daniel:

Mary,

Jay Ray:

Mary J Blige, like you, we, there's always these moments where you

Jay Ray:

like, that's why they are who they are.

Jay Ray:

That's exactly why they are, who they are.

Jay Ray:

Um, even Mariah doing the, uh, GTF.

Jay Ray:

Oh, which I thought was dope.

Jay Ray:

I was like,

Sir Daniel:

I thought it was hilarious.

Sir Daniel:

One thing Mariah has is, is a sense of humor.

Sir Daniel:

She's being dead ass, but she's, she has a sense of humor about it.

Sir Daniel:

And I appreciated that about her.

Sir Daniel:

She's she's an a.

Sir Daniel:

Shit soccer.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

First what?

Jay Ray:

Three, our first two shows with tweets, like they had Mariah Carey,

Sir Daniel:

Mariah Carey means all of that stuff.

Sir Daniel:

I love I'm a, I guess, I think I'm an undercover lamb.

Jay Ray:

Um, probably not an undercover lamb.

Jay Ray:

You probably just like a lamb lamb.

Sir Daniel:

You know, I don't want some square, I'm subscribed to many

Sir Daniel:

fandoms, but you know, if I, if I'm out record shopping and I see a Mariah

Sir Daniel:

Carey 12 is I'm definitely grabbing this because it should, you know, it's

Sir Daniel:

just something definitely to have.

Sir Daniel:

And it's, it's classic she's she does not feel with the classic materials.

Sir Daniel:

And I think like you said, the talent is undeniable and so undeniable.

Sir Daniel:

Mariah Carey through her whole career.

Sir Daniel:

She was always tethered to Whitney Houston,

Jay Ray:

you know?

Jay Ray:

Wow.

Jay Ray:

Yeah,

Sir Daniel:

there was always a tethering in Houston.

Sir Daniel:

Um, unfortunately if we're talking about comebacks, we can't talk about

Sir Daniel:

comebacks and not talking about and how.

Sir Daniel:

Did not get the comeback that they deserved or do not get the

Sir Daniel:

resection that they deserve.

Sir Daniel:

And unfortunately, Whitney Houston did not get the kind of reception that Mariah got.

Sir Daniel:

When she came out with the album, I looked to you and you know, like

Sir Daniel:

that's Whitney after years of being 14 years of marriage with box.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

You know, the, the, uh, the, the drug abuse, which we

Sir Daniel:

know is true and just, just the different changes with different, um,

Sir Daniel:

relationship changes as she was going through the industry is changing.

Sir Daniel:

And, um, you know, August, 2009, I was, um, we didn't know it

Sir Daniel:

then, but that was the last.

Sir Daniel:

That we would ever receive from Whitney Elizabeth Houston.

Sir Daniel:

I mean, it went, oh, it went on to sell 2.5 million copies worldwide, um, and

Sir Daniel:

earn her her fourth billboard chart debut, which allowed her to stay, you

Sir Daniel:

know, keep that title of, you know, female artists within with the most

Sir Daniel:

number ones, billboard number ones.

Sir Daniel:

Remember the two day Oprah Winfrey event.

Sir Daniel:

It still didn't move the way.

Sir Daniel:

Previous projects move, you know, everything else was at conic van.

Sir Daniel:

You know, there was no way you can go without not hearing.

Sir Daniel:

My love is your love or the, the bodyguard soundtrack, but

Sir Daniel:

it just didn't happen this time.

Sir Daniel:

And so do you think it was because we became exposed to the real Whitney Houston

Sir Daniel:

based on her appearances on being Bobby Brown and you know, the tablets scary.

Sir Daniel:

That we no longer had that image to subscribe to?

Sir Daniel:

Or was it that the G the music just wasn't up to par or just

Sir Daniel:

wasn't know what we needed?

Jay Ray:

Uh, I am really curious about, um, for folks that are watching what you

Jay Ray:

think my opinion always was that Whitney.

Jay Ray:

Needed to figure out how to use her voice differently.

Jay Ray:

And I knew that coming out of the, just Whitney stuff.

Jay Ray:

And then of course, all of the rumors that were going around my thought was

Jay Ray:

always why isn't Whitney trying to do something different with her voice?

Jay Ray:

Like why is she not using her voice in another way?

Jay Ray:

Because our voice.

Jay Ray:

I knew you knew that she couldn't do what she was doing in 1992.

Jay Ray:

It wasn't physically possible.

Jay Ray:

I firmly believe that if she had figured out how to do those songs a different

Jay Ray:

way, use her voice in a different way because her lower register was hot.

Jay Ray:

Like Whitney is lower register.

Jay Ray:

Incredibly.

Jay Ray:

It was rich and it was something that she could have used, but I think we wanted her

Jay Ray:

to do I look to, uh, you know, I, I look to you and do these, like belty ballads.

Jay Ray:

The reason why I think million dollar bill worked is because

Jay Ray:

it didn't require all that.

Jay Ray:

I don't need you to go there, girl.

Jay Ray:

I need you to stay right here in this middle of this.

Jay Ray:

You don't need to do all of this extra, like hooping and hollering.

Jay Ray:

And we know

Sir Daniel:

that the group do the work,

Jay Ray:

baby, Whitney Houston.

Jay Ray:

We know you can sing.

Jay Ray:

We also know that that voice isn't going to be able to do what it did.

Jay Ray:

So how about you do what you can do right now and make it hot?

Jay Ray:

So I just think that, um, at that time, the production.

Jay Ray:

I don't think it's not that the music wasn't necessarily up to par.

Jay Ray:

I just don't think it was suited to where she was at that time.

Jay Ray:

And people wanted her to be 1992 when he, or even 1997.

Jay Ray:

My love is your love Whitney.

Jay Ray:

And that wasn't who she was going to be able to be.

Sir Daniel:

No, again, we, yes, it's us.

Jay Ray:

I think if someone said.

Jay Ray:

She, she, she shouldn't have gone out onto like the tour.

Jay Ray:

I don't, I know why she went out on tour.

Jay Ray:

Cause that's the way she needed to make some money.

Jay Ray:

She needed to make some money, but baby, listen, you, don't got to do arenas bull.

Jay Ray:

Do do medium-sized venue.

Jay Ray:

Smaller footprint, rework the heck out of them songs, do a jazz set girl, like do

Jay Ray:

something else that requires you to play with that voice a little bit differently.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

It's not going to be the same thing.

Jay Ray:

I truly, truly believe that the, it was set up.

Jay Ray:

She was set up wrong for that whole situation.

Jay Ray:

And I think it affected her.

Jay Ray:

Like, I, I really think it affected her and we probably would be having

Jay Ray:

a different conversation today.

Jay Ray:

Had different decisions have been made around that album and that tour and

Jay Ray:

the way that she was kind of being put back out there at that moment.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

Like I said, preparing for this particular episode, you know, when you, when you look

Sir Daniel:

back on the clips and you look back on.

Sir Daniel:

What was happening and how, you know, this was a last ditch effort and everybody

Sir Daniel:

had so much, there was so much promise.

Sir Daniel:

There was so much the movie, you know, the

Jay Ray:

movie was coming out.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

The, um, the, the, the, um,

Jay Ray:

was it given

Sir Daniel:

sparkle, sparkle, sparkle was coming out.

Sir Daniel:

So there were all these vehicles that were set up for her.

Sir Daniel:

Unfortunately, you know, we were just on.

Sir Daniel:

Social media has just started taking over, you know, and, um, it just was a

Sir Daniel:

hard time, I guess, emotionally for her.

Sir Daniel:

And it just did not, um, just didn't end.

Sir Daniel:

Well, I mean, that was the last, the last full project that we ever got from her.

Sir Daniel:

And, you know, again, like I said, social media changed everything.

Sir Daniel:

It changed.

Sir Daniel:

I never forget the night.

Sir Daniel:

That I found out that she died was via social media was via, was on Twitter.

Sir Daniel:

And how, you know, of course, black Twitter, you know, that news spreads like

Sir Daniel:

wildfire and social media without a doubt has changed the way we receive news.

Sir Daniel:

It changes the way we receive music and it removed barriers

Sir Daniel:

between us and the artists.

Sir Daniel:

And so which opened up the artists to criticism.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

And now, now we have what is called cancel culture.

Jay Ray:

Okay.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

We have to talk about cancel culture.

Jay Ray:

You have

Sir Daniel:

to, so I, okay.

Sir Daniel:

So let me say this black people chlorine, like everything else we came up with,

Speaker:

of course we

Sir Daniel:

coined recording a cancel culture.

Sir Daniel:

And in my opinion, I saw.

Sir Daniel:

Cancel culture as a way of public figures being held accountable for their actions.

Sir Daniel:

That's how I saw

Jay Ray:

how I see it as well.

Jay Ray:

I do think that

Jay Ray:

social, I do think that the way social media sometimes gets used

Jay Ray:

and in particular, like, uh, what we, what I term as stay in culture.

Jay Ray:

Raise the issue that sometimes the allegation is the evidence like, and

Jay Ray:

therefore, because somebody said that it happened, it should be, this person

Jay Ray:

needs to be exed out of everything.

Jay Ray:

There are occasions that I think that that is true.

Jay Ray:

And we've talked about one of them earlier.

Jay Ray:

I mean, I used to bump and grind.

Sir Daniel:

I mean, in the, in the words of Iyanla, let's call a finger thing.

Jay Ray:

Let's call

Speaker:

it

Sir Daniel:

R Kelly.

Sir Daniel:

It wasn't no different.

Sir Daniel:

Like he pretty much, he got the backlash.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

But he got the backlash for well-documented behavior.

Sir Daniel:

It would be different.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

You

Sir Daniel:

know, none of that stuff was true or there weren't facts and receipts.

Sir Daniel:

We had so many receipts.

Jay Ray:

We have like 30 years of receipts,

Sir Daniel:

so many receipts and people who came forward and said, you know what?

Sir Daniel:

I did kind of turn our eyes to what was going on.

Sir Daniel:

So I'm not going to ask whether or not he deserves a second chance.

Sir Daniel:

Cause I can already tell you it's coming.

Sir Daniel:

Ask me how.

Jay Ray:

How

Sir Daniel:

I have.

Sir Daniel:

So in, you know, in circles, I'm floating and I'm hearing other DJs

Sir Daniel:

saying, you know, they've heard R Kelly songs being played again.

Jay Ray:

Oh, okay.

Jay Ray:

Listen.

Jay Ray:

Y'all okay.

Sir Daniel:

It's happening.

Sir Daniel:

Record store day R Kelly music is selling again.

Sir Daniel:

I kid you not.

Sir Daniel:

It is selling again.

Sir Daniel:

So now we're here at a double standard.

Sir Daniel:

Again, you know, cause this gentlemen, if we look at R Kelly, we also got

Sir Daniel:

to look at Chris brown who was just recently in the news again for the

Sir Daniel:

same thing, you know, for alleged domestic violence against a black woman.

Sir Daniel:

And so, but you know, people love to say, well, he's just, that's a,

Sir Daniel:

you know, he's a troubled young man.

Sir Daniel:

He just needs some time and we make up all these excuses and want to

Sir Daniel:

give people other chances, but black women, we have, we give them, we

Sir Daniel:

have a double standard for that.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

And you know what, this, yes, this is where I'm so glad we're having

Jay Ray:

this conversation because we don't, we don't extend that same grace.

Jay Ray:

Two black women.

Jay Ray:

Um, there are so many times we talked about on the show last week where drew

Jay Ray:

hill could like fight in a studio.

Jay Ray:

They can like fight in a studio and still, nobody wants to talk about that.

Jay Ray:

But two members get replaced in a group and it's like, this, this

Jay Ray:

person's evil or something like that.

Jay Ray:

So.

Jay Ray:

Yeah, man.

Jay Ray:

Uh, we have a lot of, we have, we have work to do so.

Jay Ray:

Uh, we have seen black women.

Jay Ray:

There's only one person, um, that we have CB canceled.

Jay Ray:

Um, and I think we need to have that conversation.

Jay Ray:

There's there's the one, a person I can think of every time

Jay Ray:

we talk about cancel culture.

Jay Ray:

There's one person who I can say like, oh, I do think they were actually carrying.

Sir Daniel:

And if we're thinking, if I'm thinking about the same person

Sir Daniel:

you're thinking about which we are, um, you know, there was that awful time

Sir Daniel:

in history about four or five years ago, uh, when the I'm not even going

Sir Daniel:

to refer to him by name, but the 40.

Sir Daniel:

Uh, elected official.

Jay Ray:

Thank you for that.

Jay Ray:

I like,

Sir Daniel:

you know, he was, he was going around collecting black celebrities, you

Sir Daniel:

know, so he can, you know, like, like

Jay Ray:

he was,

Sir Daniel:

he was collecting Pokemons.

Sir Daniel:

He was collecting them like Pokemons to give the optics that he doesn't

Sir Daniel:

have a racist bone in his body.

Sir Daniel:

You know, once the celebrity that kind of got caught up in

Sir Daniel:

that and was percent Michelle

Jay Ray:

yet we are talking about if there is one person who truly, I mean,

Jay Ray:

I definitely think that we eventually, we eventually got to R Kelly after

Jay Ray:

the documentary came out, Chris, that Michelle was canceled before R Kelly.

Jay Ray:

Like Chris at the shell.

Jay Ray:

God,

Sir Daniel:

all she did was sing a song and not by herself.

Sir Daniel:

I might add.

Jay Ray:

Ooh, let, okay.

Jay Ray:

So can we, I do want to, I, can we, can we tell, we talk about this?

Jay Ray:

We got to talk about this.

Jay Ray:

All right, hold on.

:

It was the wrong thing to do.

:

I've never said it publicly.

:

What was the call like?

:

Did they go through the pros and cons of it with you?

:

Oh no, it wasn't that kind of a thing.

:

How did it, what

:

are you.

:

Whatever day.

:

That was January 17th.

:

Yeah.

:

What are you doing?

:

We have an offer.

:

It was very simple.

:

Some say you did it for the money.

:

Did you

:

get a big old fat check for it?

:

I get checks all the time.

:

Yeah.

:

So that's a very normal part of my life.

:

No, I did not do it for the money.

:

I think Wendy Williams quoted $750,000.

:

That was on the cover of.

:

A big newspaper in New York.

:

And I was like, wow, I would have been really awesome.

:

It was nowhere near that.

:

One of them would come from.

:

I don't know.

:

My question has always been what was Travis Green's intention?

:

I just want to.

:

'cause his album became number.

:

Wow.

:

Whew.

:

That's just one question.

:

No, because that's antagonistic and I'm not very antagonistic.

:

I get it because blame it on me as my jammer.

:

I mentioned like, you know what girl learn from that?

:

But the question I've never said out loud was what was Travis Green's intention

:

and

:

that were we singing his songs?

:

Did he start the first verse?

:

Was I singing back up with a choir that still sings to this day?

:

I just want to know why no one saw them.

:

I really

:

subtle.

Sir Daniel:

So shout out to Tierra Grice and the Tyrrell's show forgiving

Sir Daniel:

Chrisette that platform because she deserved that she deserved that

Sir Daniel:

opportunity to clear it up because first of all, Who's Travis green.

Sir Daniel:

I didn't know who Travis green was until they brought,

Jay Ray:

sir. I was literally watching that and I had to Google.

Jay Ray:

I had to Google that performance because child, you know, I wasn't gonna watch it.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Jay Ray:

So I didn't really watch the thing I went and I looked and I'm like, There's

Jay Ray:

literally a whole stage of black people.

Jay Ray:

I literally in my mind was like, Chrisette Michelle was up there by her lonesome

Jay Ray:

with that Basquiat dress on and a band.

Jay Ray:

And I'm like, baby, it is a gospel choir and somebody

Jay Ray:

leading things, she is not alone.

Jay Ray:

I did not know that

Sir Daniel:

Travis green did y'all know that.

Sir Daniel:

Cause apparently Travis green, his record says.

Sir Daniel:

Quadrupled after that, like, she literally took all of the

Sir Daniel:

smoke for that whole incidence.

Sir Daniel:

And there was a whole, there was a state like giant Jay Ray said there was a

Sir Daniel:

stage full of people there besides her.

Sir Daniel:

Now maybe sir, her credit, she was the bigger name.

Sir Daniel:

Maybe, you know, well, let's blame it on that.

Sir Daniel:

Blame it, you know, like she said, blame it on me.

Sir Daniel:

Let's get that.

Sir Daniel:

There are other P again, we tend to put them those bulls

Sir Daniel:

bullseyes on black women's backs.

Jay Ray:

Yo like that right there.

Jay Ray:

It's not until this show that I, that I think of Janet and Justin until this shoe,

Sir Daniel:

not until Bishop do not mention him

Jay Ray:

word up.

Jay Ray:

Like I did not think of the parallels between and for her standing there.

Jay Ray:

Like I promise y'all until I watched that.

Jay Ray:

Who is she talking about?

Jay Ray:

And then I typed in the name, Travis green and Chrisette Michelle on the YouTube.

Jay Ray:

And I'm like, she was literally there with a whole black man singing.

Jay Ray:

And she was like, his record hit number one after that.

Jay Ray:

Why?

Jay Ray:

So my question is, why did we, why did we as, why did we do that to.

Jay Ray:

Why did we allow it to happen?

Jay Ray:

And why did we do it?

Jay Ray:

And I get, and I get, there was this disdain for the inauguration and

Jay Ray:

what was happening at that time.

Jay Ray:

I get that.

Jay Ray:

My question is.

Jay Ray:

I'm glad at this time I'm learning more grace and we need to have more grace

Jay Ray:

for folks because dad just doesn't sit well with me now, in retrospect,

Jay Ray:

because I was one of the ones who'd be like, she should have done that.

Jay Ray:

And dah, dah, dah do or whatever.

Jay Ray:

And you know what I'm saying?

Jay Ray:

This is ridiculous.

Jay Ray:

And, you know, whatever.

Jay Ray:

And then I'm looking at the stage like we did her dirty.

Sir Daniel:

Absolutely.

Sir Daniel:

We absolutely did.

Sir Daniel:

And like you said,

Sir Daniel:

I'm going to say this for everybody out there watching

Sir Daniel:

you are going to have to extend people, grace and mercy, because at some point

Sir Daniel:

someone is going to have to extend that same grace and mercy to you.

Jay Ray:

Um, and when we're talking about that, we're specifically talking about

Jay Ray:

like these social media, just dragons that go crazy and no, you're absolutely right.

Jay Ray:

We see it happen all the time on social media, the rival of your

Jay Ray:

fav y'all are dragging through the mud and doing like crazy stuff to

Sir Daniel:

get

Jay Ray:

getting death threats and door, baby.

Jay Ray:

No, if we, hopefully we can learn something from the

Jay Ray:

Chrisette Michele express.

Jay Ray:

Because I look back on that.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

I mean, D could she have made a different decision?

Jay Ray:

Sure.

Jay Ray:

She didn't make a different decision, but what I know for

Jay Ray:

sure is what we now know for sure.

Jay Ray:

She wasn't the only one up there.

Jay Ray:

Why does she have to be the one that bears the brunt?

Jay Ray:

Was it because she decided that she wanted to defend her stance or whatever?

Jay Ray:

I don't know what this other guy said.

Jay Ray:

Has anybody ever asked him?

Jay Ray:

I have no idea.

Sir Daniel:

I don't know who they are in the words of Kiki promise.

Sir Daniel:

Sorry to this man.

Sir Daniel:

But I don't know who he is.

Sir Daniel:

I, you know, never heard of him until today.

Sir Daniel:

And you know what, and that's probably best.

Jay Ray:

That's probably, at least,

Sir Daniel:

at least we still know who Chrisette Michelle is.

Sir Daniel:

And hopefully she'll use that, um, this opportunity and we give her this

Sir Daniel:

opportunity to have a second chance.

Sir Daniel:

I know one person who's not getting a second chance.

Sir Daniel:

Trick daddy trick daddy, ain't getting a second chance.

Sir Daniel:

That's

Jay Ray:

like trick.

Jay Ray:

You shouldn't have said, listen, I get it, bro.

Jay Ray:

You want it to get people riled up?

Jay Ray:

That wasn't the thing that wasn't the,

Sir Daniel:

so you know what trick daddy could have done tree.

Sir Daniel:

David, what do I always say, kids?

Sir Daniel:

In life, you have a choice.

Sir Daniel:

You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play

Jay Ray:

free body.

Sir Daniel:

Thanks for watching cue points.

Sir Daniel:

We'll see you next week.

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About the Podcast

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About your hosts

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DJ Sir Daniel

DJ Sir Daniel is a DJ/Selector and part of Atlanta's, all-vinyl crew, Wax Fundamentals. Co-host of the Queue Points podcast, he is an advocate for DJ culture and is passionate about creating atmospheres of inclusivity and jubilation from a Black perspective.

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Jay Ray

Johnnie Ray Kornegay III (Jay Ray) is a podcast consultant and co-host and producer of Queue Points, the Ambie Award-nominated podcast that drops the needle on Black music history. In addition to his duties at Queue Points, he is the Deputy Director of Strategy and Impact for CNP (Counter Narrative Project). A photographer, creative consultant and social commentator, Jay Ray's work is centered around a commitment to telling full and honest stories about communities often ignored.