Episode 138

The Art and Business of Songwriting (Guest: Brian Patrick Davis)

Published on: 16th April, 2024

In this episode of Queue Points, hosts DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray are joined by guest Brian Patrick Davis, a digital artist, creative director and songwriter. The discussion provides a deep dive into the nuances of songwriting, music creation, and navigating the music business. Brian shares his journey and the importance of collaboration, giving practical advice to aspiring songwriters on protecting their work and emphasizing the value of honest and genuine songwriting. They also address the challenges songwriters face within the industry, including publishing and credit disputes, highlighting the need for fairness and a potential union for creatives. Brian offers a nuanced perspective on songwriting and the music industry, making it an enlightening episode for music creators and enthusiasts alike.

Episode Playlist Curated By Sunny Bee

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Brian Patrick Davis Bio:

Brian Patrick Davis is a full-time digital artist and admitted nerd with over ten years of experience working as a creative force in the music industry. Born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia, Brian got an early leg up into the city's tight-knit creative community.

Brian has a large variety of interests, ranging from film, photography, creative writing and cooking. He loves Starbucks, Thai food, karaoke and is a proud studio rat, frequently writing, recording and vocal producing with several producers and some of the industry’s brightest singer-songwriters. As a digital artist and creative director, he is heavily inspired and moved by music. The compositions and lyrics vividly paint pictures that he communicates visually with vibrant colors and provocative imagery. With digital artwork and prints, he expresses the clear correlation between aesthetic and sound.

Davis lives in Atlanta, Georgia, where he continues to work and innovate with his team, the creative collective Etcetera Production Group. Though known for his infectious personality and fast-talk, Brian has always been a little camera shy. Joining the ranks of his amazing co-hosts at The CrewLuv Show, Ace and HD, has been a welcomed new and exciting challenge.

Topics: #Songwriting #Publishing #BrianPatrickDavis #MusicBusiness #BlackPodcasters #BlackMusic #MusicPodcast

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Transcript
Jay Ray:

Hey, Hey, y'all this episode of Queue Points may

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contain explicit language.

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Listener discretion is advised.

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Hey, what's up good people.

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It's Jay Ray, the co host of Queue Points.

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And I wanted to come to you because there are two really important

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ways that you can support our show.

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One is by subscribing to it, wherever you listen to, or watch your podcast.

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Queue Points is pretty much everywhere.

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On Spotify and on pod chaser, and you can leave us a star rating, please

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It's not required, but it really does help to spread the word about the show and it

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helps people to discover it as they're looking for new podcasts to listen to.

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We're always appreciative of you supporting Queue Points.

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We thank you so much for all that you've done for us so far and enjoy the show.

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DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast.

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I am DJ Sir Daniel.

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And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government

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as Johnny Ray Cornegay, the third, what's happening, people,

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DJ Sir Daniel: This is Queue Points podcast, dropping the

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needle on black music history.

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And guess what?

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J Ray?

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what?

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DJ Sir Daniel: We've survived the AT& T blackout of 2020.

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24.

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We survived.

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I'm still here.

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I don't know who was trying to get in contact with me earlier today.

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Listen, but I'm here.

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I'm still here in the words of Fantasia.

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So here's, what's interesting.

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I of course did not know that that happened today.

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There was apparently, uh, very recently to a T Mobile outage.

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It did not, it did not impact me.

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I did not know that it happened.

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Um, but apparently it did.

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So it leads me to wonder.

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What in the world is going on?

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Are the country people mad that Beyonce went to number one?

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I don't know.

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Are they getting in the internet and stopping people?

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I don't know.

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DJ Sir Daniel: I don't know.

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I obviously went straight to thinking about that Netflix movie with Mahershala

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Ali and Julia Roberts where all the phones went down and the next thing you

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know, nuclear bombs were being shot off.

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And so, We're not there.

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Thank God.

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So we're still here.

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We're, you know, no, we're not in black caves.

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We're not separated by city and state any like in the movie,

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but we're here for Queue Points.

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We're here to hear a lively discussion about black music and black music history

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and that's what Jayray and I do best

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a lot of there's a lot of overlapping in the conversation that we were

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having and the things that we want to talk about tonight and I can't

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think of anybody better to discuss that with than, um, tonight's guests.

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So Jerry, I'm going to let you do the honors and, um, I guess

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Yeah, this is so exciting that we get to have this guest on the show.

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Uh, both DJ Sir Daniel and I are fans of the work that they do.

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Um, and so I'm going to read, uh, read his bio and then we'll bring them on and

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they were going to have, uh, some chat.

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So our guest tonight is a Brian Patrick Davis.

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Brian Patrick Davis is a full time digital artist and admitted nerd.

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With over 10 years experience working as a creative force in the music industry.

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I'm a just add true and true.

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What's up?

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Born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia.

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Brian got an early leg up into the city's tight knit creative community.

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Brian has a large variety of interests ranging from film, photography,

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creative writing, and cooking.

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He loves Starbucks, Thai food, karaoke, and is a proud studio rat,

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frequently writing, writing, writing.

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Recording and vocal producing with several producers and some of the

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industry's brightest songwriters as a digital artist and creative director.

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He is heavily inspired by and moved by music, the compositions and

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lyrics vividly paint pictures that he communicates visually with vibrant

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colors and provocative imagery with digital artwork and prints.

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He expresses the clear.

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Correlation between aesthetic and sound.

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Davis lives in Atlanta, Georgia, where he continues to work and innovate with his

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team, the creative collective, et cetera, production group, though known for his

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infectious personality and fast talk.

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Brian has always been a little camera shy, but he here, right?

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So joining, joining the ranks of amazing co hosts at the crew love show,

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ace, ace and HD has been welcomed.

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New and it has been a welcome new and exciting challenge and we are so

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excited Queue Points family to welcome Brian Patrick Davis to Queue Points.

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What's up?

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Brian Patrick Davis: So good to see you guys.

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Yes,

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DJ Sir Daniel: Brian, do you realize this almost been what, seven years since

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I made my first foray into podcasting with the shuffle and repeat podcast.

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And Brian was my very first guest, um, to talk about your book, your debut

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book at the time songs about boys.

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Can you believe that much time has gone by?

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Brian Patrick Davis: as I said earlier, I cannot believe that much time has passed.

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It does not feel like it's been seven years, but if you say a seven, then

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that's what we're going to go with.

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Listen, um, I think one of the things that we talked about before

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coming on the air is how beautiful it is that seven years later we get to come

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back and just have some dialogue with you about this moment that you're in.

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And one of the first things that we want to do for is, is make sure that

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you get the opportunity to introduce yourself and your work to our folks.

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So tell us about your background in music.

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Tell us about, you know, et cetera productions.

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Fill us in on all the things.

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Brian

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Brian Patrick Davis: Okay.

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Okay.

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So, um, I have been, I'm born and raised in Atlanta.

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I know that's like a rarity, but I am born and raised in Atlanta.

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And, um, I've been around the music community for a really, really long time.

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Um, growing up, um, I was next door neighbors with, uh, my next

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door neighbor was best friends with like Jermaine Dupri and Da Brat.

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So I knew them.

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When I was a kid, um, I used to, like, go over, um, Chris Smith's house

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from Criss Cross when I was younger.

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They lived around the corner from me, so I've just always

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been around the music community.

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Um, I started interning at LaFace Records when I was, like, maybe 14 years old.

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And, um, From there, I just, I was just always around music.

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I was always around musicians.

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I knew a lot of recording artists.

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I knew a lot of people that were trying.

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recording artists.

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Um, and yeah, I was just super immersed in that culture and

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that community from a young age.

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Um, I went to Clark Atlanta University.

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And, um, as you all know, like, there's just a, uh, a wealth of, uh, musicianship

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and camaraderie at Clark Atlanta.

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And, um, I met people that were also songwriters and vocal producers

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and producers and just trying to, like, you know, find their way in.

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And at the time, um, right for this pretty popular black entertainment.

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publication called Concrete Loop.

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Um, and I was able to foster a lot of relationships with, um, producers,

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songwriters, executives, artists, um, any, anybody that I could touch in the

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music industry, I was touching them.

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A& R, just everybody.

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And it kind of, um, I was able to, um, form and build a lot

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of relationships through that.

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And that was kind of a way that I, um, moved into the creative sector

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of like, um, being a behind the scenes, creative in the music business

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when it came to, um, consulting, um, songwriting, um, doing creative

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direction, helping with photo shoots.

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Um, anything that was behind the scenes, creative.

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I wanted to be a part of, I wanted to have my hands in it.

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And, um, 2008 ish, I guess, I kind of like fell in love with the process of

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songwriting and being in the studio and just like, um, that energy is

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something that I still love to this day.

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Like, I love being in the studio.

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And so, um, Me and some, um, some classmates of mine, we formed this

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creative collective called Etc.

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Production Group, um, and we kind of like have coined ourselves as

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like a full service, um, artist development and production house.

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Um, and, um, really just, we've worked with a lot of people.

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I mean, we've worked with, um, Kelly Rowland, JoJo, Janet Jackson,

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Cassie, um, Janelle Monae, uh, we've worked with tons of people.

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Um, but our favorite thing to do is kind of like build our own projects.

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And so, um, as of the year 2022, like We had started getting back to that, um,

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you know, building something from the ground up from conception to fruition.

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That's something that we really like.

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That's our, that's kind of like our motto.

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Like we want to see things from conception to fruition.

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And so we've been really getting back to that.

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DJ Sir Daniel: the reason why listeners, why Brian, we asked Brian to be a part

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of this particular episode is because, um, you brought up Cassie, right.

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And, um, so Tiffany read.

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Not familiar is a music industry vet as a songwriter.

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She recently dropped a, uh, a very, a video that went viral where she

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was talking about songwriting and the disparities in the industry regarding

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songwriters and how they get credited or not get credited, um, as songwriters.

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And so.

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With she said a lot and but I want to hear from you Brian like What do songwriters

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need to do to protect themselves because that seems to be an ongoing theme not

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just with Tiffany But it's it's been said so many times over and over again.

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A lot of our legends have experienced You know, where they don't get full

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credit for the, the work that they put into a project, but, and here it is

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coming up again as a songwriter, what do y'all, what do they need to do?

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Because there's some songwriters listening right now to this podcast.

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What do you need to do to protect yourself?

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Brian Patrick Davis: I will say this.

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I think that as a songwriter, one, one thing that is very important to

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know is first who you're writing with.

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Um, I think a lot of times people think that they need to protect themselves

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just from artists and labels, but it is important that you protect yourself

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with other songwriters as well.

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Songwriting is one of those things.

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Okay, I like to, I like to describe it like this.

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And this is kind of like maybe an old, archaic way of looking at things,

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because, you know, like, contracts and the way that people negotiate

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their business and paperwork is a lot different than it was in the past.

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when I started out, but I like to think of songwriting as a song, as a pie.

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And so a pie is a 100 Um, in, in, in the beginning, 50 of that pie

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automatically goes to the producer.

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A producer is going to take 50 of the pie off top.

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The other 50 is for the songwriters.

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So that is why it's important to, like I said, to know who you're writing with

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and to have split sheets and to have conversations before you guys start to

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work on something together, especially if you're working with somebody that

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you don't know, because a studio can be a very, it's a collaborative setting.

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There can be people coming in and out.

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You might write with somebody that you've never met before.

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You might be in there with somebody that you've known your entire life.

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It just depends on who you're working with and work and what you're working on.

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And so you have this 50% You have to make sure it's fairly distributed between

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the people that worked on the song.

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So obviously if it's just you, then you take the entire 50 percent of the song.

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If it's you and somebody else, Depending on what you wrote and what

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the other person wrote, you may have an agreement to split the 50 up 25, 25.

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But if that person feels like they wrote more than you, they have to agree.

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You guys have to agree upon the percentages in the split.

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So if you, one thing that people don't know is that when an album

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comes out or an EP comes out or something gets released and the

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split sheets are not Um, agreed upon.

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Nobody gets paid.

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No one gets paid.

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So it doesn't matter.

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It doesn't matter.

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You know, like how many streams a song had.

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It doesn't, it doesn't matter.

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If you guys don't agree upon the splits, no one gets paid.

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The producer's going to take their 50%.

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That's, that's already gone.

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But the songwriters are the people that suffer.

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I think, The most important things are to always have an attorney, um, know

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who you're writing with, and then, um, don't, don't, songwriters at one

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point were so obsessed with publishing agreements, but You don't need a

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publishing agreement until you have a hit and you have like a catalog of hit songs.

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It's okay to, um, to, to, to not have a publishing deal, um, and

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still be successful and still eat and still be able to shop your songs

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to, um, the appropriate parties.

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Um, so I think those are the kind of like most important things as it pertains to

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protecting yourself um, as a songwriter,

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Um, you know, you bring up something really important and thank

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you so much for kind of laying out the way that process often looks for folks.

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You know, I think one of the And I would love to have you speak to

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this because I think one of the things that, um, may, people may

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not be prepared for is, of course, being in that studio setting, right?

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And not being familiar with how to have these conversations or just be one of

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those people like, I'm generally nervous about having these conversations.

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Um, I would like to ask this in two ways from your perspective.

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How did you learn how to do that?

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Right.

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And two, how can other people learn how to do it?

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Because I imagine there are folks that are like, Oh, that makes me nervous.

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Right.

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I don't know, even though I wrote most of that song, I don't know how

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to say I wrote most of that song.

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Right.

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So I'm curious, how did you learn how to do it and how can

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other people practice that?

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Brian Patrick Davis: So for me, um, I learned how to do it.

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I kind of had the luxury of being able to write with people I knew,

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um, and, and writing with people I knew was important because, um, we.

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always had an agreement amongst each other.

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Like, it doesn't matter who wrote what.

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If four of us are in the room, we're going to split it.

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equally.

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If three of us are in the room, we're going to split it equally.

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And that was kind of like the luxury that I had.

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Um, nowadays, I think one of the easiest ways to have the conversation

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is to have a split sheet with you.

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Um, the studio that I record at primarily now, he, the engineer, he

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has split sheets inside the studio.

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to say, Hey, look, this is what we did.

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This is what we, so that it's so that it's not a point of contention.

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When you walk in there, when you walk in there, you know that it's business.

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Everybody can sit down and say, I know what it is that I worked

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on, and we can be honest about what we worked on on this paper.

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Um, we talked, we kind of spoke about this in the pre show, um,

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when, before we got on camera and, um, you guys were talking about how

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people use smartphones in the booth.

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DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

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Brian Patrick Davis: I write everything down.

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I'm a very visual person.

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I like to keep pen on pad.

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And so that's also your proof.

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is to show like, hey, look, this is, this is what I contributed.

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And, you know, I have proof that this is what I contributed.

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All of us should be writing in our notebooks.

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All of us should be, you know what I'm saying?

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Like there should be revised copies of what we've written.

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And so I would say, honestly, if, if you're afraid to have those conversations,

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just carry the split sheets on you when you go to the studio and, and let

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people know like, Hey, this is business.

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So we can need to make an agreement before we, before we start, before

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the vibe starts, before the, before we get into, you know, like, you know.

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Before y'all start drinking and smoking, I don't drink or smoke, so I don't know.

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Before y'all start doing all of those things, y'all need to sit down and first

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just break the ice and say like, no, look, this is, this is, although this is

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a vibe, it's also a business, and let's make sure our business is handled before

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we move forward with anything else.

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DJ Sir Daniel: And see, you read my mind because I was going to go there.

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I was like the studio, this is a creative environment, you know,

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and, and writers and musicians are, are, are creative people.

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And we like the vibe and when, and when that beat kicks in people, Oh, I got an

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idea and then automatically everybody just starts getting into this groove.

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But it's like, how do you, that switching.

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That code switching, if you will, of going from artist to

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business person is what you're

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Brian Patrick Davis: Also, also, Sir Daniel, another thing is like sometimes,

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um, I like to like, when I'm working with people, I like for us to separate.

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Even if it's, even if it's in the corner, like I will kind of like go off in the

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corner and I'll just kind of be like, you know, and then we come together and

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see what, and see what ideas work, what ideas don't work, what can be tweaked.

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I think that because the best songwriting to me is collaborative.

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I can't say, well, I'm not going to say I can't stand, but I hate, uh, I

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wrote, I wrote recorded produced engine.

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I, I, that's like, that's not fun to me.

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I understand how I understand that it's impressive, but it's

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also like, okay, it's very, it's a very Tyler Perry way to do things.

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And I just think, I just think that it, that the best music comes out

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of when it, when it's, uh, when it literally is like you bout you're

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able to bounce off of people.

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I think that that's the best.

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DJ Sir Daniel: There is a lot to be said for that, for, for those

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different energies to get together.

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And, um, and, and well, we, it's okay.

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So some questions have come up in the chat.

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Um, Is it like, do you hear, and this is, I guess like a, uh, what's in the sausage

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question when you're in the studio and you all get together, does it start with the

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instrumental before you go off writing?

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Or is it a, um, is it a premise that somebody says, Hey, there needs to,

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we need to do a song about this.

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Brian Patrick Davis: So,

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DJ Sir Daniel: Jump off.

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Brian Patrick Davis: so I think, I think everybody is different for me.

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Um,

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like I said, I carry a notebook with me everywhere I go.

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So sometimes if a line or a subject matter or a word comes

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to my mind, I will write it down.

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But those things are never finite.

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And a lot of those ideas I never even revisit.

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Um, I think for me, um, I, um, I like to hear something first.

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And this is the same way that I am with music in general.

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If, if I'm just listening for pleasure, or if I'm writing, I

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like to hear the sound first.

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And then, if the sound makes me feel something, then I

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can move forward with it.

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And I can come up with ideas.

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If the song makes me feel like this, then that's what I'm going to write about.

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Um, and I, and again, um, thankfully, the guys that I work with

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primarily, they work like that too.

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Um, a song will make them feel a way or invoke a certain type of emotion.

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And then, um, And then the concept will come.

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Um, and a lot of times what we like to do is I could, if I showed you my

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voice notes on my phone, like when I'm in the studio, um, I'll hear

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the beat and then I'll just like ask the engineer to play the whole beat.

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And then I'll just start mumbling or like humming, um, humming melodies.

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And then we pick the melodies that we like the best or that are the most interesting.

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And then we write to those melodies.

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And then we figure out like, you know, is this, will this sound good as a hook?

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Is this, you know what I'm saying?

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It just, it's, It's like putting together the pieces of a puzzle.

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DJ Sir Daniel: Jerry, you know what this, and I love this because now we get

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to pick Brian's mind as a songwriter.

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And what bringing up for me is so Luther Vandross has been in the

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zeitgeist a lot because those first two debut albums are back, like they're.

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circulation and they're about to be reprinted and all of that.

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And, and, um, a few minutes ago, you mentioned those types of songwriters

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who can, you know, they can do it all.

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And of course, Luther is Luther is one of one, right?

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But so I'm so interested, I'm so curious to know, like, as far as

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songwriters are concerned, and it doesn't matter the genre, like who's

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Brian Patrick Davis look up to?

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Brian Patrick Davis: Um, I love Candice Nelson.

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Um, she is one of my favorite songwriters just from a, like

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a contemporary standpoint.

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She knows how to do a lot of different things.

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She has a lot, she has a lot of different bags.

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She can do like super R and B shit.

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She can do super duper pop shit.

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And for anybody that's not familiar with Candace, um, she

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had a long heyday with Timbaland.

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She was a member of the clutch.

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Um, she wrote the way I are.

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Um, for Timbaland and Carrie.

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Um, she wrote Resentment for Beyoncé.

Jay Ray:

Um, she's, she's just one of those people that can do so many different things.

Jay Ray:

And I've heard so many different types of like, sounds and vocal things from her.

Jay Ray:

Like, she's one of my favorites.

Jay Ray:

Um, Andre 3000 is one of my favorite songwriters.

Jay Ray:

His storytelling is just, um, Is A1 to me.

Jay Ray:

Um,

Jay Ray:

um, I love Pharrell Williams.

Jay Ray:

Um, like early-2000s Pharrell is like, I mean, I love a bridge.

Jay Ray:

So anytime you get to like a chord change and a chord progression

Jay Ray:

and you start doing some mo s**t like, that's like, I love that.

Jay Ray:

Um,

Jay Ray:

miss that?

Jay Ray:

Oh my.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: yes.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

Um, as far as like current people, like people that are, that are like right now.

Jay Ray:

Um, I love Victoria Monet's perspective.

Jay Ray:

Um, I think that she has a very, um, unique, uh, niche sound that is kind

Jay Ray:

of like, I don't know where it came from or why she decided to, to do that.

Jay Ray:

But what she's doing is Super effective and I just love it so much.

Jay Ray:

Um, I love, oh gosh, there's so many people.

Jay Ray:

Um, Teedra Moses is one of my favorite songwriters.

Jay Ray:

Um, she just be, she just be talking that s**t Like I, I love when a

Jay Ray:

woman can just talk and they talk like a n***a and they be like, you

Jay Ray:

like, that's, that's my s**t I love that s**t When I can see women just.

Jay Ray:

Asserting themselves and being, I love that.

Jay Ray:

Um, gosh, there's so many people I love.

Jay Ray:

Um, there's this writer, his name is Attitude.

Jay Ray:

Um, he used to be a rapper, but, um, he wrote a lot of like

Jay Ray:

pop shit in the early 2000s.

Jay Ray:

Like he was, um, instrumental on, um, Nelly Furtado's Loose album.

Jay Ray:

He's like super dope to me.

Jay Ray:

Um, uh, Sean Garrett, um, not Sean, not to be.

Jay Ray:

confused with Sean Garrett, the pen, although I do respect him.

Jay Ray:

But I'm Sean Garrett.

Jay Ray:

Uh, static

Jay Ray:

Static major.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: in peace.

Jay Ray:

Static major.

Jay Ray:

Um, Shay Taylor.

Jay Ray:

Um, Chanel from young money.

Jay Ray:

I mean, there's just so many, there's so many people that I just

Jay Ray:

love that I, that I think are, um, Candace Pele is another one.

Jay Ray:

Um, It's so many songwriters and I love.

Jay Ray:

Um, you know what this is bringing up?

Jay Ray:

I want to go back because you mentioned something really important.

Jay Ray:

And Sir Daniel and I talk about this a lot as well.

Jay Ray:

Of that, there's a magic in Just like a traditional song structure where you

Jay Ray:

got like, like when that bridge come and that stuff switch up and you like, yes,

Jay Ray:

ma'am, take us to where we need to go.

Jay Ray:

What will it take, Brian?

Jay Ray:

I get, I I'm fine with the short intros now.

Jay Ray:

I don't need 16 bars at the top.

Jay Ray:

I'm fine with that.

Jay Ray:

Get me into the song immediately, but don't, erase that bridge.

Jay Ray:

I need it.

Jay Ray:

You know what I'm saying?

Jay Ray:

How do we get back to that in production, especially when we think

Jay Ray:

of like contemporary R& B music?

Jay Ray:

What are your thoughts?

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: what I'm, what I've noticed is a lot of time when artists

Jay Ray:

go to the studio, what the, what the producers are playing for them are loops.

Jay Ray:

They're not full.

Jay Ray:

They're not full songs.

Jay Ray:

They're not composed.

Jay Ray:

And I think a lot of artists especially, and I don't think that's

Jay Ray:

necessarily the producer's fault.

Jay Ray:

I think a lot of times artists are listening to producer's ideas and the

Jay Ray:

pro and the artist says, I like that.

Jay Ray:

Give me that.

Jay Ray:

I, I want that.

Jay Ray:

And so they end up a lot of times writing to a composition that's

Jay Ray:

not completely built out yet.

Jay Ray:

I think that's the first, I think that's the first problem.

Jay Ray:

The second problem is is that listeners attention spans are so

Jay Ray:

short now and people are people.

Jay Ray:

are listening to songs,

Jay Ray:

and I think this is a double edged sword too.

Jay Ray:

I think that it's part listener, sorry for that, it's part listener,

Jay Ray:

and it's part, um, it's part artist's fault too because artists have gotten

Jay Ray:

into their mind that they want to get their streaming numbers up.

Jay Ray:

And so they keep songs short so that when you hear it, you want to hear it again

Jay Ray:

because you're not finished with it.

Jay Ray:

And so you just play it over and over again.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: And so that's okay.

Jay Ray:

So then that's building up streaming numbers, which everybody is obsessed

Jay Ray:

with now, because that equates to dollars and which goes back to an off

Jay Ray:

camera conversation, another off camera conversation we were having about.

Jay Ray:

The musicianship of it all, or the lack of musicianship with, you know, the, a

Jay Ray:

lot of producers are beat makers where there are some that are actual musicians.

Jay Ray:

And you mentioned something very important, Brian, about the fact that you,

Jay Ray:

it's, yes, that's cool that you know how to program as cool that you know how to

Jay Ray:

play, uh, you know, a chord on a keyboard and loop it, but don't you want to, at

Jay Ray:

some point, Learn about core progressions.

Jay Ray:

Learn about theory is the exact word that you, that we, that you

Jay Ray:

mentioned off camera about theory and, and being able to, as a producer,

Jay Ray:

musician, partner with an artist.

Jay Ray:

and getting that out of them.

Jay Ray:

And so, yeah, and, but we're not getting that anymore.

Jay Ray:

One, because of what you just said about the, the mindset now of we've

Jay Ray:

got to get these listeners to, to, to keep these songs on repeat.

Jay Ray:

So we got to make them as short as possible.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: Yes.

Jay Ray:

You know what that brings up?

Jay Ray:

And this is interesting and interesting aside.

Jay Ray:

Um, I will never forget DJ premier talking about when he

Jay Ray:

worked with Christina Aguilera.

Jay Ray:

So he was like, Christina was interested in working with me.

Jay Ray:

He told the story.

Jay Ray:

He was like, she was interested in working with me.

Jay Ray:

So it was ain't no other man.

Jay Ray:

She was like, so I presented the song and she's she heard the song.

Jay Ray:

She was like, yes.

Jay Ray:

This, but I need a chord progression.

Jay Ray:

Like you can't, he just gave her the beat because he's a hip hop producer.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Jay Ray:

He gave her to be, he was like, no, I need a transition.

Jay Ray:

I need a chord progression here so that I can move the song.

Jay Ray:

And that was the first time, right.

Jay Ray:

For him that he's like, Oh, I'm now learning how to do this thing that

Jay Ray:

I never had to do in hip hop before.

Jay Ray:

But he had an artist that said.

Jay Ray:

Love that.

Jay Ray:

Great.

Jay Ray:

You got to take it further though.

Jay Ray:

And here's what I need you to do.

Jay Ray:

So that collaboration piece is so important.

Jay Ray:

MPN Network Mid-Roll Ad: What's the word everybody it's your man, Mr.

Jay Ray:

Al Peter, Mr.

Jay Ray:

Peterson's neighborhood and the NPN network.

Jay Ray:

And I'm here today to tell you about what the NPN network consists of.

Jay Ray:

The NPN network is an entertainment as well as a developing media company

Jay Ray:

based in Jacksonville, Florida.

Jay Ray:

Our goal is to highlight various creatives that exist in spaces of music,

Jay Ray:

visual arts, podcasting, and more.

Jay Ray:

Within the network, we have multiple brands that were parallel with

Jay Ray:

creatives, events, and other brands.

Jay Ray:

The Neighborhood Podcast Network is a collective of independent podcast shows

Jay Ray:

that has various topics ranging from the latest culture news, mental health,

Jay Ray:

sports, and leisure conversations.

Jay Ray:

We also have the Groove Suite brand that explores the realm of soul,

Jay Ray:

hip hop, R& B, funk, and more.

Jay Ray:

Our health and beauty section gives a view on how to keep yourself

Jay Ray:

in shape, in style, and in tune with your body and your mental.

Jay Ray:

Last we have the Fly Socks and Tees, an annual summer event that brings

Jay Ray:

creatives together to celebrate the past years and victories that were received.

Jay Ray:

So swing by our website npn llc.

Jay Ray:

com and subscribe so you can stay up on what's happening with

Jay Ray:

The Neighbors and The Groovers.

Jay Ray:

Also follow us on our Facebook page as well as Instagram

Jay Ray:

and Twitter NPN Management.

Jay Ray:

Building but becoming.

Jay Ray:

To the top.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: So this conversation came up because it was sparked because

Jay Ray:

of the video of, um, one Tiffany red, who is a, uh, a legendary songwriter in

Jay Ray:

the industry and had brought up some.

Jay Ray:

Some issues or some things that she has faced

Jay Ray:

hmm.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: The industry lately regarding working with big names.

Jay Ray:

And Jerry, this is not the first time I've heard this.

Jay Ray:

Like we heard, we've seen it on the, on the liner notes.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: And so I think that's where a lot of questions are

Jay Ray:

coming up and I'm hoping Brian, you can help shed some light on that.

Jay Ray:

But what is the real deal behind working with A big name artists like your

Jay Ray:

Beyonce's because her name was brought up.

Jay Ray:

Not his name was brought up and those artists taking writer's credits if,

Jay Ray:

and they may or may not have like.

Jay Ray:

You know, put in as the kids, like, like, you know, it's like we, you ain't put

Jay Ray:

in on this, but they get credit for it.

Jay Ray:

So shed some light on that for us, because I believe a lot of people,

Jay Ray:

that's a conversation that has been blowing up on social media about whether

Jay Ray:

or not these artists that are on the forefront deserve this writer's credit.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: I watched Tiffany's whole video and, um, There are a

Jay Ray:

lot of, she said a lot of important things that, that should be looked at.

Jay Ray:

Um, I think the problem comes when people try to make it seem like,

Jay Ray:

yes, an artist may not have written a word, or they might not have,

Jay Ray:

let's just, let's just say writing.

Jay Ray:

An artist may not have written a word.

Jay Ray:

Um, but I'll use Beyonce as an example because that's, you know,

Jay Ray:

that's who people want to talk about.

Jay Ray:

Most people don't know.

Jay Ray:

As I told you, Candace Nelson, she's a friend, a mentor to me.

Jay Ray:

She wrote Resentment for Beyonce.

Jay Ray:

A lot of people don't know.

Jay Ray:

There are two recorded versions of Resentment that are out that you can find.

Jay Ray:

Um, recorded by other artists, two, two other artists that are well

Jay Ray:

known, one being Jasmine Sullivan and one being Victoria Beckham.

Jay Ray:

Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: Um, the song appeared on Victoria Beckham's album in

Jay Ray:

the UK and it, um, was in, in Jasmine.

Jay Ray:

It didn't appear on a song.

Jay Ray:

I'm assuming that it was a part of the sessions from when she

Jay Ray:

was working on her first album.

Jay Ray:

But if you listen to, um, the version of Resentment that Jasmine

Jay Ray:

and Victoria Beckham recorded, they sound exactly the same.

Jay Ray:

Not as far as vocals go, but just structurally, um,

Jay Ray:

the lyrics are all the same.

Jay Ray:

It ends all at the same place.

Jay Ray:

Um, the last line of, of that song I think is, This sounds like a 50's

Jay Ray:

record, but that's alright with me.

Jay Ray:

Whatever it is.

Jay Ray:

It ends that way.

Jay Ray:

Beyoncé's version of that song is significantly longer than what the

Jay Ray:

original version of Resentment is.

Jay Ray:

And I've heard Candice's demo of Resentment, and it's what Victoria

Jay Ray:

Beckham and Jasmine's Sullivan's version sounds like when I talked to Candace

Jay Ray:

about the session of resentment that happened with Beyonce She said that she

Jay Ray:

was not there The producer was there but when she got the song back it was

Jay Ray:

a completely different song background The arrangements, the writing at the

Jay Ray:

end, um, I know she was attractive, but I was here first, all of that

Jay Ray:

stuff, Beyonce added those things.

Jay Ray:

And so therefore she took, uh, she took some of the publishing on the song

Jay Ray:

That's how it works.

Jay Ray:

So if you leave space open on a record for somebody to put, to give

Jay Ray:

their input and they do that and they send the song back to you and

Jay Ray:

that's what it has on it and you agree to it, then they're going to get.

Jay Ray:

get credit.

Jay Ray:

Um, anything in the arrangement, the, um, the way that the vocals are

Jay Ray:

arranged, the way that the, um, the, the backgrounds come in, the stacks, if you,

Jay Ray:

if you didn't have anything to do with that, that is a part of the production.

Jay Ray:

That's a part of whether or not they get credit on, as a part of

Jay Ray:

the, as a part of the production.

Jay Ray:

So those things are all a part of publishing.

Jay Ray:

Now I'm not here to, to.

Jay Ray:

To be the person to decide how much publishing there is such a thing

Jay Ray:

as like throwing your weight around and taking too much publishing.

Jay Ray:

But, you know, what you agree, what you agree upon is what you agree upon.

Jay Ray:

And while I agree with what Tiffany was saying about, you know, like

Jay Ray:

people feeling like they're going to miss out on opportunities

Jay Ray:

by not agreeing to song splits.

Jay Ray:

Those are all real true concerns.

Jay Ray:

Those are all real true things.

Jay Ray:

But, um, I also think that a lot of the things that Tiffany was saying, too,

Jay Ray:

were things that were good soundbites, and they don't necessarily give a

Jay Ray:

holistic explanation of what publishing is, why a person would get publishing,

Jay Ray:

and why people get the percentages of publishing that they might get.

Jay Ray:

And Jontay Austin did Who I Love as well, by the way.

Jay Ray:

Recently, he, he made a, a, a comment, um, in regards to Tiffany's video

Jay Ray:

basically saying, like, think about Publishing that you would get on a song

Jay Ray:

that done by a colossal artist, even if you taking a smaller percentage of

Jay Ray:

that publish, that publishing and the stage and the access that that song

Jay Ray:

has and think about it in comparison to you getting a hundred hundred.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

80, 75 percent of a publishing from an artist that is much

Jay Ray:

smaller that doesn't have the access as the larger brand artist.

Jay Ray:

You still are going to probably make a little bit more residual income off of

Jay Ray:

the person that's on the larger sound screen than you would getting a big

Jay Ray:

percentage, a portion of the percentage of publishing of a smaller record.

Jay Ray:

Brian, thank you so much for that really important perspective because, um,

Jay Ray:

I love, what I love about this dialogue, and I'm so glad you agreed to even be here

Jay Ray:

with us to kind of broach the subject, is there are so many layers that go into.

Jay Ray:

How this process works, right?

Jay Ray:

There is, it's not, it's not so easy to, it's not just one thing, right?

Jay Ray:

One of the things that, um, Kipper Jones did in his video as well.

Jay Ray:

We'll make sure that we put that in the description too, is talked

Jay Ray:

about kind of the structural issues.

Jay Ray:

Issues in place that also make this problem or this particular

Jay Ray:

thing show up too, right?

Jay Ray:

So there's like structural things that show up as well.

Jay Ray:

So there are so many layers to it.

Jay Ray:

And thank you for, um, your bravery and talking honestly about how this works.

Jay Ray:

So we appreciate that too.

Jay Ray:

Um, so you just dropped gems, right?

Jay Ray:

If you held a Songwriters 101, Brian, what would be some jewels,

Jay Ray:

one or two jewels, that you would want to make sure you drop on those

Jay Ray:

songwriters at your Songwriters 101?

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: um, 1 I would say put your phone down and write down everything.

Jay Ray:

Not put your phone down because I understand you might need it to record

Jay Ray:

some, a voice memo or an idea, but I would just say to write things down.

Jay Ray:

I like to look at what the process was.

Jay Ray:

I like to see things scratched out.

Jay Ray:

I like to see where words were added.

Jay Ray:

I like to see the progression of what that looked like on paper.

Jay Ray:

I I think that's really important.

Jay Ray:

Um, 2 find people that you trust to collaborate with.

Jay Ray:

3 have a good face card.

Jay Ray:

Um, I think that that's one of the most important things people don't

Jay Ray:

realize that like people remember their first impressions of you.

Jay Ray:

Um, and, um, you know, like credit and, you know, And all and clout and

Jay Ray:

all of that stuff is, is one thing, but for people behind closed doors to

Jay Ray:

say to each other, like, Oh, I really fuck with her or I really fuck with

Jay Ray:

him is that that means so much more, especially when it's with your peers.

Jay Ray:

Um, 4 have a good attorney 5 and just be, honestly, like, really y'all,

Jay Ray:

like, just be open to like the process.

Jay Ray:

I think so many people are like, um, they like to pigeonhole

Jay Ray:

themselves because they're always like, Oh, I want to write a hit.

Jay Ray:

I want to get a hit.

Jay Ray:

I'm trying to get placements.

Jay Ray:

I'm trying to get placements.

Jay Ray:

But the thing about it is like, if you're just, if you just submit to the

Jay Ray:

process and and lay the groundwork by just doing stuff that you love and that

Jay Ray:

you trust something and that's honest to you, something is going to, to hit.

Jay Ray:

Hmm.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: If you're not being honest with yourself, if you're not being

Jay Ray:

true to, you know, like, because like songwriting is all about connecting.

Jay Ray:

If, if you're, if you're not connected to it, if you're not

Jay Ray:

connected to it, what makes you think that anybody else is going to be

Jay Ray:

Mm.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: if it's being honest with like yourself or listening

Jay Ray:

to what somebody else is going through and being able to like process that

Jay Ray:

through yourself, how you react to it and how it connects to you, then what's

Jay Ray:

the, what is the purpose in doing it?

Jay Ray:

If it's not true, if it's not true to you, then why would it be true to anybody else?

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: And that that is the mark of a, a classic song is how

Jay Ray:

many people can actually relate to it and actually sing it like it was.

Jay Ray:

People want, people feel like you've written their life if

Jay Ray:

you've written a really good song.

Jay Ray:

So that's, that's a major, that's a major key.

Jay Ray:

Um, Brian, and Wow, you really, thank you for that.

Jay Ray:

That was a serious gem that you dropped.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: And, and, and print out those split sheets.

Jay Ray:

Yes!

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: Not those switch seats.

Jay Ray:

It's business.

Jay Ray:

It is a business, folk.

Jay Ray:

And I think that, you know, a lot of what is going on and being said

Jay Ray:

is that people are tired of being manipulated by this industry.

Jay Ray:

There are a lot of people who are super talented, but they, they are

Jay Ray:

make, trying to make sure that they can eat, that they have a place to

Jay Ray:

sleep, you know, roof over their head.

Jay Ray:

And sometimes that does mean.

Jay Ray:

Keeping a nine to five so that you can, you know, in order for you

Jay Ray:

to make those dreams come true.

Jay Ray:

But while you're doing that, this is also a business as Brian stated.

Jay Ray:

And that has to be at the forefront, probably rule number one.

Jay Ray:

And it's, it's been stated over and over again, kids like Q tip said

Jay Ray:

it and the rules, like you've got to, to put your business first,

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: It's literally, it's literally called the music

Jay Ray:

business and the music industry.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: curious

Jay Ray:

What is your hope for the industry and like a fair practice act for creatives

Jay Ray:

when it comes to music and musicians?

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: I think that it is important that songwriters and producers

Jay Ray:

too, and vocal producers, engineers, I think that there needs to be, um, a union,

Jay Ray:

Mm

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: um, that we need to unionize.

Jay Ray:

And I think that we would be able to, I mean, because the thing is

Jay Ray:

like the film industry and the music industry have so many parallels.

Jay Ray:

Streaming is king now in the film industry, which is something that

Jay Ray:

I never thought would happen.

Jay Ray:

But they've managed to come to an agreement about making sure people

Jay Ray:

get residual pay from, from, from writing scripted series, films, you

Jay Ray:

know, like, I think that that's, I think that that's important.

Jay Ray:

And I think that, um, I think that also too, um, as creatives, not, not

Jay Ray:

just, I mean, on the backend, you know, like producers, songwriters, we have

Jay Ray:

to stop undercutting each other too.

Jay Ray:

Um, I think that that's, um, I was really being serious when I said

Jay Ray:

that like, you know, songwriters, you gotta like know who's around you.

Jay Ray:

You have to know, because, um, there are people that are trying to get

Jay Ray:

to where you are, and you might not even feel like where you're at,

Jay Ray:

where you're supposed to be yet.

Jay Ray:

And so I think if we, um, kind of like, if we, if we can form a union, um, It

Jay Ray:

will help with us not having such a crab in a bucket mentality as well,

Jay Ray:

like vying for the same things and feeling we like we have to do undercut

Jay Ray:

Like underhanded things to get the same opportunities um I would like to see that.

Jay Ray:

And, um, sir, Daniel, I really loved what you said about like, um, you know,

Jay Ray:

the industry kind of healing itself.

Jay Ray:

And I think that that it's getting to that point.

Jay Ray:

I think that, um, I think that, um, there are just a lot of things, positive things

Jay Ray:

that I'm seeing change, at least from a face, a front facing, um, way, like, um,

Jay Ray:

there's this resurgence of vinyl now, um, And I think there's kind of like a purist

Jay Ray:

kind of movement happening where people are wanting music to be tangible again.

Jay Ray:

And I think that, um, I think that that's what's going to start changing the

Jay Ray:

quality of, um, the business practices that happen behind the scenes as well.

Jay Ray:

Mm hmm.

Jay Ray:

Wow.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis.

Jay Ray:

Oracle, songwriter, creative director, all of the above, podcaster.

Jay Ray:

Um, thank you so much Fashion icon.

Jay Ray:

Um, you know, we are so honored and grateful.

Jay Ray:

You decided to spend your evening chatting with us here at Queue Points, lighten up

Jay Ray:

the chat, um, and really sharing, um, your gift and your knowledge with our folks.

Jay Ray:

So thank you.

Jay Ray:

Um, thank you.

Jay Ray:

Thank you so much.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: thank you guys.

Jay Ray:

And I apologize for my voice.

Jay Ray:

I'm suffering from an upper respiratory infection.

Jay Ray:

So I'm trying to get a wrangle on that.

Jay Ray:

I've got my good drugs right here.

Jay Ray:

Um, so I apologize.

Jay Ray:

But thank you guys so much for having me.

Jay Ray:

I appreciate it.

Jay Ray:

Um, conversations like this are always so much.

Jay Ray:

Not only are they fun, but they're just so important to have.

Jay Ray:

Um, and I just appreciate you guys and everything that you all do.

Jay Ray:

Thank you.

Jay Ray:

And for all of you that are watching, um, as we always say,

Jay Ray:

stay connected to Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

If you can hear our voices, if you can see our faces, subscribe, wherever you are.

Jay Ray:

You can sign up for our newsletter at magazine.

Jay Ray:

Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

com.

Jay Ray:

Um, and you can also shop our store, store.

Jay Ray:

Queue Points.

Jay Ray:

com, where we have some new merch and things out there for you.

Jay Ray:

Brian Patrick Davis: We love merch.

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: absolutely.

Jay Ray:

Well, listen, everything that needed to be said has been said tonight.

Jay Ray:

This episode, this is one of them ones.

Jay Ray:

Jay Ray.

Jay Ray:

This is one of them ones.

Jay Ray:

So, as I always say in this life, you have a choice.

Jay Ray:

You can always, you can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.

Jay Ray:

I am DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray:

I am J Ray and

Jay Ray:

DJ Sir Daniel: special guest, Brian Patrick Davis.

Jay Ray:

And this has been Queue Points, dropping the needle on black music history.

Jay Ray:

We will see you on the next go round.

Jay Ray:

Thank you so much.

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About the Podcast

Queue Points
Queue Points is the Black Podcasting Award and Ambie Award nominated music podcast that is dropping the needle on Black Music history and celebrating Black music through meaningful dialogue. The show is hosted by DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray. Visit https://queuepoints.com to learn more.
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About your hosts

DJ Sir Daniel

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DJ Sir Daniel is a DJ/Selector and part of Atlanta's, all-vinyl crew, Wax Fundamentals. Co-host of the Queue Points podcast, he is an advocate for DJ culture and is passionate about creating atmospheres of inclusivity and jubilation from a Black perspective.

Jay Ray

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Johnnie Ray Kornegay III (Jay Ray) is a podcast consultant and co-host and producer of Queue Points, the Ambie Award-nominated podcast that drops the needle on Black music history. In addition to his duties at Queue Points, he is the Deputy Director of Strategy and Impact for CNP (Counter Narrative Project). A photographer, creative consultant and social commentator, Jay Ray's work is centered around a commitment to telling full and honest stories about communities often ignored.