Boyz II Men, Philly, and the Power of Harmony with John Morrison

Sir Daniel: 00:00:16

Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points Podcast. I'm DJ Sir Daniel and my name.

Jay Ray: 00:00:21

Is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay iii. And Sir Daniel, we got like a record at this point. There's another John on this show.

Sir Daniel: 00:00:30

Listen, I made up a very off color joke about two Johns and a Daniel that was funny, but I'm not gonna repeat that because we have guests, we have company. So I'm gonna keep it nice and pg. Well, not pg, that's worse. I'm gonna keep it nice and G over here while we have our guests.

But I'm super excited about this next guest, J. Ray, because it's not too often that we. We've had an author on the show, right? We've had one author wrong before and that was huge for us. Another author.

And not only is this gentleman an author, he's a producer, a crate digger. He DJs the whole nine. He's a complete journalist. He's a journalist. He's a complete cultural cachet, if you know what I mean. So I love that, right?

So I'm super excited for us to bring him on because he's got a new book that I'm sure the world is going to be talking about. And we here at Queue Points have the exclusive.

Jay Ray: 00:01:32

Boom. So excited to have this conversation. So Queue Points family, we are going to welcome John Morrison.

John Morrison is a DJ radio host and music journalist from Philadelphia, right up the street from where I'm at. For over 25 years he has worked as a writer covering local and global music scenes.

Morrison got his start in the late 90s as a teenager writing for independent hip hop and punk zines. Shout out to Morrison of the punk zines from back in the day.

Since then his work has appeared in the New York Times Complex, NPR Music, Spin Magazine, Red Bull Music Academy, and more.

And in demand on air personality Morris Morrison regularly appears on flagship NBR music programs like All Songs Considered and the World Cafe as well as NPR's Tiny Desk Top Shelf series. As a DJ, Morrison's music making and performance practice has greatly informed his writing.

Decades of digging in the crates for rare records to spin sample has enhanced Morrison's expertise in music culture and his ability to write in depth, expertly researched essays on music history.

Morrison is author, also author of this beautiful book that we are gonna be talking about today, boys to men 40th anniversary celebration, a comprehensive book on the Philly R and B legends. Boys to Men, published this past spring by Quattro Books and Epic Inc. QPoints family. We are so excited to welcome John Morri up here.

What's happening, man? Hey.

John Morrison: 00:03:01

Hey, what's going on, y'?

Jay Ray: 00:03:02

All?

John Morrison: 00:03:03

Yeah, I'm. I'm chilling. Yeah. Running around today. I'm glad to be here with y'.

Jay Ray: 00:03:07

All.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:08

Awesome. Awesome.

I am super excited because as I was telling J Ray, the way I found out about you was that I somehow came across an article you did on one Mike Maserati. Or is it Maserati? Mike.

John Morrison: 00:03:25

Mike Maserati. Yeah.

Jay Ray: 00:03:26

Yeah.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:27

And, you know, I'm a DJ as well, and anytime I see anything about that is about DJs, I typically read it. And I had never heard of Mr. Maserati. And just the facts that you laid out in the interview was just so. So mesmerizing and enlightening to me.

And I was just like, yo, this is so dope. And the fact that you covered him and you gave him his shine because there aren't many people like him on the scene.

Like, I was like, yo, this dude is this. That could have been me in the early 80s if I was, you know, if I was that age. So I just thought it was so dope.

And I was like, j Ray, you gotta read this. And I just started. I started. I followed you, started cyber stalking you and looking at all the stuff that you were into.

And I was like, damn, he collects vinyl, too. Like, man. So I. You know, so this is a.

This is a big deal for us, and I'm super glad that you're here to discuss your new book and just, you know, jump it off by telling our listeners and viewers what exactly inspired you to pull together such an impressive celebration of one of the greatest vocal groups of all time.

John Morrison: 00:04:40

Yeah, well, the idea to write this book, it actually came from my wonderful editor at Epic Inc. Kara Donaldson. She approached me with the idea, we sat down, we talked about it. She's like, yo, I think we should work on a Boyz II Men book.

I think it would be dope. And we sat down and we started having these conversations, and we're talking a lot about Boyz II Men. And for context, Kara is from Philly.

Jay Ray: 00:05:12

Okay?

John Morrison: 00:05:13

So she reached out.

We're sitting down, we're talking about Boyz II Men, but we're also connecting the dots between them and, like, this broader story about 90s pop culture. We're also talking about Gamble and Huff and Philly International and how all of that stuff, you know, is. Is really a continuum.

You know, everybody who raps and sings from Philly got an uncle that played in MFSB or. You know what I mean? Or somebody who knew Gamble and Huff back in the day. It's all connected throughout the generations.

So Kara and I were having this conversation and having these series of conversations, really, and I saw that we could write something that was really detailed about one of the greatest groups. You know, like you said, like one of the greatest vocal groups of all time, but could also be a very. A bigger story.

Jay Ray: 00:06:08

Yeah.

John Morrison: 00:06:09

You know, so that was. That was the initial inspiration. She. Kara is a genius. She came up with the idea. She thought, you know, I would be the person to write it.

I knew, you know, having, you know, being from Philly and having written about Philly's music history for so long, I knew at some point I was going to have to write something significant about Boyz II Men because they're so important to the city's history. But she set it off.

She hit me up, and we started talking, and the ideas just started rolling, and I was like, yo, I think this is something we can do. I think it's something that we should do.

Jay Ray: 00:06:47

Yeah. You know, thank you so much for doing this.

So one of the things I absolutely love about holding this is this is a collector's item, the way y' all have laid it out, including your wonderful writing, but also archival images.

So it's very much like a coffee table book, like something you could in black homes, that you could sit on your table and pick it up and at any point, from this point into the infinite future. Right. Be able to see a moment in black music history, music history and Philly history, like, all in one.

So just wanted to, like, big, big, y' all up for. For the way this is put together. Thank you. You're welcome, man. So going back in time a little bit.

So I'm from Chester, and I vividly remember when Motown Philly came out. So here's what I remember, which is really funny. I don't know if this is true or not, but here's what I remember.

I was listening to Power 99 one day, and there was this new song that was coming on, right. I don't know if Michael Bivens may have happened to be on the radio or something.

There was something that was making it an event, and for whatever reason, I remember the DJ calling the group Motown Philly. Maybe that was what I remember. That probably is not what happened.

Like, they probably definitely said Boyz II Men, but in my head, I heard this new song by this group called Motown Philly. That was also called Motown Philly. And none of that was weird to me. But I remember the song being banging, right?

So this group, but I hadn't seen them yet until the music video. So we finally see the music video. They are doing like full out eight counts. It's R B, but it's a little bit of hip hop.

You know, they got a, they got a different, you know, a look that's a little more school, that fit me more. Right. And so we're seeing them show up in the space as hip hop is getting darker, right?

Black hoodies and jeans and all of a sudden everybody is real hardcore. When it's. When you talk about black men, Right. So I want to dig into that a little bit.

When you think about Boys to Men's emergence, particularly as representatives of like black men and masculinity, young black men, how. How do you see that? Like, what did they represent for. For black men at that time?

John Morrison: 00:09:31

Yeah. So for context, I was 10 years old when Motown Philly was released. So. Yeah, very much, yeah, I was about.

Jay Ray: 00:09:43

Yeah, yeah, I was about 13. I was about 13. Okay.

Sir Daniel: 00:09:47

They're basically making me the old man on this podcast right now. But that's okay. I was squarely. I was, I was a freshman in high school when this, when it came out. So that's okay.

John Morrison: 00:09:57

And being old. Being old is a g. Yeah, it is. You feel me?

Sir Daniel: 00:10:00

Truly.

John Morrison: 00:10:02

So, you know, when that. No, no, no. When that record came out, you think about a 10 year old boy.

A lot of my ideas of what a man should be or would be, you're starting to form that.

I mean, it starts, you know, from the cradle, but, you know, you starting to have like ideas and opinions about the world and about, you know, your relationship to the people around you, your relationship to yourself. Your body is going to start changing. Some people's bodies change earlier, you know, some later.

But you know, boys to men and hip hop in a way were part of my story growing up, you know, and Boyz II Men in particular.

think about that time period,: 1991

You know, for our parents generation, our grandparents generation. There's still some stuff that that hip hop inherited from those generations past.

But, but hip hop kind of ramped up the aggression, it ramped up the confrontational energy. You know, that, that black Men embodied under hip hop culture.

And, and that was really like a far cry away from, you know, the R and B balladeers of the past, the way that black men had presented themselves as men before. So to me, Boys II Men, in a way kind of split the difference, right?

Especially in those early days, like with how they presented themselves on that first album. You talked about, you know, the clothing style they had, the prep style, they. They were clean cut.

They even say it in Motown, Philly, you know, not too hard, not too soft. You know what I mean? These are guys who are talented singers in the old mold of. Of black male vocal groups.

And, you know, they were balladeers, they were vulnerable and they were sensitive, just like the men that, you know, our parents listened to back in the day.

But we all also understood that these were young cool guys who were absolutely of the hip hop generation and in that way, not like, you know, the men that we had listened to in the past. So that's, that's really how I think about it. They.

They split the difference and connected those different ways of presenting black masculinity, you know, pre hip hop and post hip hop. But, you know, we understood where they were coming from because it was all black. You know what I mean?

And we as black folks weren't so far gone or so, you know, removed from the past that we didn't recognize ourselves in them. We saw it.

Sir Daniel: 00:13:19

Right. And you know, it's funny you bring that up, but that was actually. You kind of covered the next question.

And I think part of what you're referring to was due to Jayren. We talked about this. Boyce II Men came right after the whole Milli Vanilli.

John Morrison: 00:13:38

Yeah. Yep.

Sir Daniel: 00:13:39

And so, man, you had everybody that came out after that, like in Vogue, Boyce, everybody was standing flat footed and proving to the world that they can actually sing drop singing acapella at the drop of a hat. So you're absolutely correct. It was like at that point, black America was like, nah, we need people to show improve to another point.

You made about still on the way black masculinity and manhood is presented.

It's so funny that even though Boys II Men presented an alternative or even a throwback to what we were, to what we were used to, and, and consider the fact that their mentors actually came from a group that, that. That fashioned themselves after those singing men singing groups from the past, even though they were younger, but what the community still did.

And I wonder if you talk about this in the book.

What we still did is we Kind of made these comparisons against, you know, their counterparts at the time, like a Jodeci, who were clearly more on the hip hop tip, who were clearly more swagged out, if you would. And I'm throwing up air quotes, and who were clearly like, the best, well, the bad boys of R B.

So it's like, even though we were presented with both sides, the community was almost left picking sides. What do you think about that?

John Morrison: 00:15:12

Yeah, no, absolutely. And growing up, I was probably more of a Jodeci guy than a Boyz II Men guy. You know what I mean?

Just because of how they presented that hip hop thing.

I was young and, you know, had a lot of energy and saw myself like, oh, I could be not like Jodeci when I grew up, but, you know, it's like, oh, these guys remind me of, like, older guys in my neighborhood, you know, more so than the clean cut, preppy thing that Boyz II Men were presenting. But that was an interesting time.

Like the late 80s, all the way through the 90s or through the early 90s, were an interesting time in black music, because, not to be dramatic, but it really was a turning point, a struggle for what was going to be the primary mode of expression for young black people musically. And whatever young black people's primary mode of expression is, is America's primary mode of expression.

So you think about how hip hop emerged and really overtook R and B.

In a way, it's like the foreground voice and expression for black people and young black people in America, America at large moved along with that because as we've seen with doo wop, jazz, rock and roll, everything else that came, you know, around that time or everything that came before hip hop, once young black people in America decide this is the wave, America decides, eventually they'll catch up or try to catch up and decide that it is going to be the wave. So the way that groups like Boyz II Men kind of bridge that gap between R B and hip hop were important because you. You could still, you could.

You could create something new and you could lean in on this new, seeing quotes, hip hop energy, but it still retained a lot of the good stuff from the past.

So it wasn't just, you know, a stark break from the past, which I think that young people's desire is to innovate, young people's desire is to push against the old ways and the old norms and create something new. And I think that that's something that we collectively as a society should encourage.

But I think that it's important that Some of the old stuff comes along, too. So I think that Boyz II Men was a fine representative for black music. Because they did that. They bridged both of them.

Jay Ray: 00:18:07

Yeah. Yo. Okay, so we are going to talk about that. That last piece a little bit in a second. But a memory has. Has unlocked, too.

Because one of the things I think it's easy to remember Boys to Men for kind of like those big ballads like End of the Road and I'll Make Love to you, et cetera, et cetera. But along those same. Boyz II Men was also making, like, these dope slow jams.

And we love slow jams on cue points and see it as really important to just, like, black music culture. So it just reminded me that on that first album, and I completely forgot about this. My favorite joint was like, that remix. That joint was crazy.

I was like. Of all the joints, like, that remix went off to me and was just. And put them in kind of a different sort of class.

Because I think we were seeing them in kind of this one mode. But that song kind of gave them that slow jam thing. That they also, of course, are experts at. Because they're brilliant. A brilliant vocal group.

Sir Daniel: 00:19:22

They turned up the sexuality on that part. Because I think. Well, I think, Jerry, what you're referring to.

John Morrison: 00:19:27

And.

Sir Daniel: 00:19:28

Well, I'll say this. What I'm thinking is, is that I remember that Boyz II Men, they were definitely the guys that you could bring home to mom.

Jay Ray: 00:19:37

Yes.

Sir Daniel: 00:19:37

And, you know, and they. You can sing those songs. The whole family could sing along. Whereas, you know, their counterparts were doing other.

Other things and being a little more implicit about sex and sexuality, which is fine. There's. That's another point, is there was room.

Jay Ray: 00:19:56

For all of it.

Sir Daniel: 00:19:57

Then there was room for all of that time. And I don't understand. I'm baffled why people feel like they have to go to one extreme and not trying to find a balance today.

Because I really do believe that's what we're missing is that balance. And then also what I. And technically, music wise, what I realized is that. So Motown Philly dropped.

And I think that was the most high energy song that Boyce Cement has ever put out there. They're singing over samples and whatnot. I don't think they've done. They didn't do anything like that after that. Did anybody notice that? Or am I.

Did I miss anything?

John Morrison: 00:20:36

Not really. I know the song. You know, when they would do it live around that time, they would kind of ramp the energy up.

It would reach those same levels of energy as Boys to Men. The studio version, not so much. But yeah, they.

I honestly, and I've said this to folks before talking about this book, I wish that I don't say wish I would have been interested in Boyz II Men leaning a little bit more into hip hop, you know what I mean? Like as, as their career progressed. There's a record on DJ Jazzy Jeff's album the Magnificent where Sean from Boys to Men does a guest spot.

It's a record called How I Do. Yep, to this day, dope. I play that record out.

I literally just had a gig at the Pen Museum on Saturday and I was cutting that record up, you know what I mean? And it, it, I, I can't think of whose show I was on.

I was talking about the book, but I said that that song makes me think like, oh, what would Boyz II Men have sounded like if they would have got like Pete Rock to do some production at some point or Dilla, Rest In Peace to get some production. That How I Do record is crazy because it's got that Pete Rock, Dilla, Jazzy Jeff bounce to it.

But then showing us throwing like the Boyz II Men harmonies, that would have been a beautiful combination. But you know, they, they, they leaned more towards the ballad stuff and that was, you know, that was for them.

You could tell that was what they really wanted to do. But the hip hop head in me is like, man, if they would have, if they would have just gave us like one, you know what I mean? It would have been crazy.

Sir Daniel: 00:22:27

Now I will say this.

I'm sorry, Jay Ray, as somebody that's been living in Atlanta for a long time, I will say that the DJs had absolutely no problem taking those, those slow acapellas, the slow jams like, and putting it over a booty shake, a bass beat and it goes off.

I think that might have been the closest thing that we could have gotten to, you know, to something with a harder edge is what you're referring to down here.

You know, like the, the, the King Edward J's and the, you know, the DJ JCS had no problem taking those acapellas and putting them on adult bass beats. So. And, and that makes me think that they could have really done something like you were saying with, you know, hip hop producers.

Imagine because Marley Mar was really big at that time because En Vogue has Marley Mar remixes. Imagine if they had that.

Jay Ray: 00:23:21

Yeah, and this also makes me think of house too. They would have been perfect over some like crazy house production. But. And sending the Dance floor up. But.

But to this point, I think what we're really also kind of talking about is there are traditions that boys to men walked in. Right. And they knew what traditions they was walking, they were walking in. Right.

So one of the things that Sir Daniel and I talk about on this show a lot, John, is we talk about like recipes and the import. The reason, one of the reasons Queue points exist is to one, share these histories, but preserve some of these recipes and things that we learned.

Cause it's important to our musical history and our ability to kind of just create dope stuff. Right. But when you look at the charts and it's crazy today. Cause when we were up, groups were just like a regular thing.

John Morrison: 00:24:17

Regular.

Jay Ray: 00:24:18

It was just part of it. In fact, most of the people that we love started in a group and then they probably went solo later and it worked.

But a lot of times for most of them it didn't. So they ended up back in the group. Right.

But to that point, particularly vocal groups in black music, traditional and Philly had like just so many classic vocal groups, but we just don't have that today. What, from your perspective, when you get to muse on this, what are we miss, what are we losing culturally by not having this?

And what do you think the role is that that type of synergy in music kind of played and we really don't have it today.

John Morrison: 00:25:06

Yeah. You know, I think about this a lot and I've thought about it a lot while writing this book and researching it, and it makes me sad.

And it's kind of disheartening to see that vocal groups have declined so sharply in American popular music in general. But specifically thinking about in black popular music, you know what I mean?

The only people with vocal groups are like the J Pop and the K Pop groups.

Jay Ray: 00:25:35

Yep.

John Morrison: 00:25:35

You know what I mean? Nobody else wants to sing together, but I think that our music is poor for that. You know what I mean?

I think that there's a richness and something that's deeply human about us singing together. You know what I mean? I grew up in the church and my earliest musical memories, I was on a podcast that was more like rock oriented.

You know, we were talking earlier about y' all be on like a rock podcast. That's why I bring it up. But I was on one that was more rock oriented and. And the host asked me, you know, what was some of your first.

What was your first musical experience? And I was like, there's. There's no music before the church for me. You know what I mean, like, like no hip hop, nothing, you know what I mean?

And my family was not like, you know, band pop music. We weren't with that kind of family. It's just my earliest memories, period involved the church.

And it involves singing together with my family and with my community. And I think that, that, you know, that practice enriches our music as part of, you know, music itself on a human level, you know what I mean?

One person beats the drum, another person makes a noise, you know what I mean? And we, we communicate and we talking together, you know. And if you look at Boyz II Men specifically as.

As great a singer as Sean Wanye, Mike and Nate are individually, the act of them physically singing together created something greater than the sum of its parts.

Jay Ray: 00:27:23

Yep.

John Morrison: 00:27:24

You know what I mean? They talk about it a lot where when they sing, you know, people ask them questions about the harmonies and stuff.

And you know, if you sang together with somebody who has an ear, you yourself, you know, you know, you can lock in it. It almost. It elevates you, you know what I mean?

Like, it's something physical and spiritual that happens when, when you sing in harmony, in concert together now you think about. You think. I was just. Let me just say this. You think about our music now and our music lacks that.

Jay Ray: 00:28:03

Yes.

John Morrison: 00:28:04

Human beings singing together, you know what I mean? We still get talented artists and songwriters and musicians and producers and all of that stuff.

But we're missing the act of singing together in these records that are playing on the radio, that are playing in people's Spotify. That part is missing something. And we're, like I said, our music is poorer because we don't have that.

Jay Ray: 00:28:32

So I'm gonna let Sir Daniel go, but we're doing a mind mail right now because I think I know exactly where you're going.

Sir Daniel: 00:28:36

Go ahead, John.

Right now I'm actually shaking because Jay and I have had these conversations ad nauseam about the power of harmony, of harmonizing and voices coming together.

And I don't know if you know, this input in writing your book is so timely that you're writing about Boys to Men because you said something very important. You said, it's almost like we don't like each other enough anymore to form these groups.

Jay Ray: 00:29:13

Yep.

Sir Daniel: 00:29:13

And what I'm seeing is what your book is representing or is chronicling the relationships and the well being of black men, period. Because we are in the middle of the eye of a storm right now. Where black men are searching for identity. We are. For some, they are.

They are fighting for supremacy. Amongst us, they are. People are looking for leadership. They're looking to, to be leaders.

You know, their podcasts that are tearing us apart and then we got podcasts that are fighting against that.

And I can't think of anything that kind of mirrors what's going on in the black community right now than what, than what this book is talking about or is. Is referring to in a very special way. Like I like the, the decline of male singing groups in particular. And men singing about being tender.

Jay Ray: 00:30:21

Yes.

Sir Daniel: 00:30:21

And showing emotions. The lack of that right now is. We can kind of trace it back to, to probably the last Boys to Men album, studio album.

Like something, something abrupt happened in our community amongst us. And I think when we talk about for black men today, what lessons or inspirations could.

Could we draw from Boys to Men in how we approach our emotional maturity, our emotional well being and relationships, how we relate to one another, whether they be platonic or romantic. But what, what lessons can we draw from Boys to Men, you know, in this, in this moment?

John Morrison: 00:31:12

Yeah, I think honestly the primary mission for black men today, especially cishet black men, but for all of us, really, our primary mission should be to fight as hard as we can to fully embody our humanity. So I'm talking intelligence, creativity, sensitivity, vulnerability, as you mentioned, all of it.

Patriarchy cuts us off from so many different like, aspects of ourselves. We end up moving through the world as this, you know, ugly version of ourselves or, or a unrealized.

Yeah, yeah, like an unrealized version of, of ourselves. You know, what we, what we could be. You know, we end up living in denial of our potential and we don't even know it. You know what I mean?

We think, you know, I'm being a man, I'm doing it the right way. You know, I say to people from, from the. My father was killed when I was nine years old. I didn't cry from then until I was 27. Like I couldn't.

And believe you me, plenty of things I saw, did and was around should have made me cry, but I couldn't, you know what I mean? I couldn't do it. We have to let that shit go, you know what I'm saying?

And music is important music and many other things, you know, my relationships, meditation, a lot of things opened me up as a human being and made me a fuller person. Listening to Boyz II Men won't fix any of that stuff.

But I think that there's a vulnerability in these songs that can open men up, open human beings up, you know what I mean? If we sit and listen to this music and. And take in the emotions that they're putting on these records with sincerity, not ah. And these.

They sipping or they claim, you know, don't clown it. You know what I mean? None of that. Just. Just sit with the music and listen with. With sincerity and openness.

I think that it can open us up a little bit and it can help us train ourselves to be more open human beings, fuller versions of ourselves, you know what I mean? And that's what music is like. It adds color and nuance to our lives as human beings.

And I think that as black men specifically, we have so much that we can give to the world. We have so much that we've given to the world.

Jay Ray: 00:34:14

Yes.

John Morrison: 00:34:15

You know what I mean? Already.

In order to continue to do that, we have to fight against all of this other stuff that's telling us to be lesser versions of ourselves, that's telling us to not take responsibility for our own well being and for our community's well being. This stuff that's telling us to, you know, hate women. You know what I mean? Like, in order to be our best selves, we have to reject that shit.

That's why, you know, I'm not out here, you know, beating drums. But I don't allow none of that stuff around me.

Jay Ray: 00:34:52

Yes.

John Morrison: 00:34:52

You know what I mean? Because I know that that stuff is a lower version of who we can be. And I love black men and I want us to be.

And I want it for myself, you know what I mean? I want us all to be our best selves. I think that music can help that.

I think that good songs about loving sincerely and being vulnerable and baby, I messed up, but I'm sorry.

Sir Daniel: 00:35:19

Yeah, yeah.

John Morrison: 00:35:20

How many people we see on Twitter that say they partner can't say they sorry. The music, I would like to think, taught us how to do that.

Jay Ray: 00:35:32

It gave us language. The feeling like you would listen to a song and be like, oh, that's what that is. Remember back in the day, y', all, There's a digression.

Thank you so much for that, John.

But remember back in the day, there would be on like, sitcoms where the dude, the young man would like, find something in a song and then he would, like, go to the girl and he'd be like, is that a lyric? Yes.

John Morrison: 00:36:03

This is how I feel.

Sir Daniel: 00:36:06

I could do you one better.

And I hope this is not cringe because it, you know, remember at the end, like sometimes during the episode of the Cosby show, and what would Heathcliff do? If there was something he would drop, he would reach into that stack, pull out a song. Clear would be sitting there.

You know, if she was annoyed, she'd be sitting there with her hand, her head in her hand, and he would play that record.

He would either start lip syncing or just sit doing something to console her, rub her feet, whatever, and use that song to get back and say, hey, we still good? I love you. I'm sorry.

Whatever it is that he was feeling at the time, and it would be the perfect way to end it just showed us that there's a connection. There's language out there that we could. That we can use. If you can't come up with it yourself, maybe this song will do it for you. It was.

It was literally. It was literally done in front of us. It was literally modeled for us to. To do.

But now, you know, I feel bad for a lot of these young men that don't have that.

Jay Ray: 00:37:21

Yeah, man. So, John, you have created this wonderful.

Sir Daniel: 00:37:27

Work.

Jay Ray: 00:37:30

For those folks that might say, I know. I know everything about Boys to Men. I done seen all the documentaries. I know all the things.

Sir Daniel: 00:37:35

I still got a bow tie.

Jay Ray: 00:37:37

I still got a bow tie, right? What would surprise them, you think about? Well, one, why should. You know, why. Why should they pick this book up?

And what would surprise them if they picked this book up from your perspective?

John Morrison: 00:37:52

I think that the thing that would most surprise people, and this is feedback that I've been getting from folks as they've been like, getting their early copies and reading through it. I think that what would surprise people. You.

Jay Ray: 00:38:08

You.

John Morrison: 00:38:08

Not only do you get a detailed account of Boys to Men as a group, you get a wide range of. Of musical connections and cultural connections that the book draws. You know what I mean? You may know Boyz II Men, but do you know Doo wop?

You know what I mean? You may know Boys to Men, but do you know how Gamblin Huff started? Do you know how the Backstreet Boys or NSYNC started? You know what I mean?

I write about that at one point. Like, my partner, she loves NSync. So I was working on this book and I was like, babe, you'd be happy with this chapter that I'm working on.

She's like, why? I was like, I'm writing, like a whole history of NSync, you know what I'm saying? Chris used to be in a doo wop band called the Hollywood High Tones.

You know what I mean? Do you know that? You know what I'm saying? So there's you know, sorry, I can go on. You know what I mean?

Boyzi Men had a studio right outside of Philly.

And before Britney Spears had a record deal, very young, pre fame Britney Spears, she recorded an entire unreleased album with Vivian Green writing the songs. What? In Boyz II Men's studio. And that studio, I'm sorry, that studio, before that studio was a studio.

It was a Civil War munitions manufacturer, that building, before Boys to Men took it over. You know what I mean? So you may know Boys to Men, you know all the songs. You got the albums. This. This is a dense for a coffee table book.

This is a dense history of black music, popular music. You're going to get something out of it.

Sir Daniel: 00:40:03

John, do you know if any of the members of Boyz II Men have gotten their hands on the book yet or.

John Morrison: 00:40:09

I. I know that they. That they know about it.

Sir Daniel: 00:40:13

Okay.

John Morrison: 00:40:14

I don't know that they've read it, you know what I mean? Or checked it out. And I didn't even know that they knew that this existed because, you know, for full disclosure, this is a work of journalism.

It's a reporting. I didn't, like, collaborate with them on this book, right? But we did the book. Record release, or record release the book. I mean, the album mode.

We did the book, the book Release party at 48 Record Bar in Old City here in Philly. And I'm on stage and I'm talking, and somebody asked me like, oh, you know, do they know about the book or have they. Have they read it?

And I was like, I have no idea. Blah, blah, blah. And Kara Donaldson, my editor, she was in the audience, and she kind of yelled out like, she was like, they know about it.

So apparently somebody from their team or one of them hit up the publisher on some like, hey, what is this thing? Like, what's going on? We're hearing about this book, so they know it exists. You know, I'm a reporter. I write the stories, so it's not.

It would be lovely if they read it and was like, oh, this is dope. But that's not really what this is for, you know, And.

Jay Ray: 00:41:26

And we need journalists like yourself. We need folks who love music like yourself to continue to do the work that you're doing. John, Like I said, this is absolute. Look at this.

This thing is beautiful, y'. All. Do you see this?

Sir Daniel: 00:41:41

Ain't that pretty?

Jay Ray: 00:41:42

It's purdy. And it's. It's. It's. I seriously, for. For black folks, this definitely needs.

For every household, but definitely, if you love black Music and R B music. This is one of the books that needs to be in your house. And John, thank you so much for bringing this man to, to. To the world.

This is a beautiful, beautiful volume. And thank y'. All. So y' all have tuned in to this episode of Cue Points. If you can see our faces and hear our voices, subscribe wherever you are.

Sir Daniel: 00:42:15

And you know, Jay Ray, we're always talking about having physical media and how important that is specifically to the black community, to black culture and black art. And so, John, please take this moment to invite our Cue Points listeners and viewers to order your book and to follow you and your future endeavors.

How do we get in contact with you? How do we get this book?

John Morrison: 00:42:41

Yeah, you can find the book everywhere. You know, if Amazon or Walmart is your thing, you can find it there. It's.

There's a host of independent bookshops all around the country who are carrying it. Harriet's here in Philadelphia. They have copies of it. So, yeah, you can find a book anywhere. Anywhere you find books.

And you can find me on social media. I'm really, honestly only on Instagram and Twitter. I don't really be on, like, the other ones, but at JohanLiberator, you can find me everywhere.

If you follow me on Instagram, it's going to be a lot of, oh, hey, y', all, I'm at a DJ gig, or, hey, I just got this record, or, hey, me and my boo, we out on date night. You know, my Instagram is very much like a boring old head Instagram, but Twitter occasionally.

I do historical threads for things that I'm researching. Like, I did an interview with Marley Marle last year, maybe like a few months ago.

But basically, you know, Marley Marle, influential hip hop producer.

But I knew that he had a background in disco and I knew that he had worked with, like, Prelude and like a lot of the disco labels back in the day when he was young and starting out.

So I interviewed him and I just talked to him about disco records, like playing disco in the park, producing, you know, early dance records, all this different stuff. So I went on Twitter and just did a thread about our conversation, but also about disco boogie.

I don't really like the term boogie, but you know what I mean? Just really breaking it down, kind of like blowing up, you know, these, these little, like, historical bits and, and threading them throughout.

So if you want to see me on date night and, and going through records, follow me on Instagram. If you want detailed music history, follow me on Twitter.

Jay Ray: 00:44:47

Boom. Oh, My God, man, that is dope. Make sure y' all follow John. Make sure that y' all get this book. This is a great gift too.

So birthdays, holidays, whatever, you will like. You definitely do that for the music heads in your life.

John Morrison: 00:45:00

But my mom bought a stack of them.

Jay Ray: 00:45:02

Listen, shout out to your mom.

John Morrison: 00:45:03

She just handed them out.

Jay Ray: 00:45:06

That's what we did.

Sir Daniel: 00:45:07

That's what she's supposed to do. You know what I'm saying?

John Morrison: 00:45:09

And I told her, I said, I'll give you copies. She said, no, no, no, no, no.

Jay Ray: 00:45:13

Mom knows the deal. I gotta buy it.

Sir Daniel: 00:45:16

Yo, Cho, you know she's your biggest salesperson too.

Jay Ray: 00:45:19

And you know she's telling. She is absolutely everybody. If she goes to church, they all know. If she shop at the local, the store, they all know about.

John Morrison: 00:45:28

For sure. For sure.

Jay Ray: 00:45:31

John Morrison, thank you so much for being here with us on Cue Points. We appreciate you, brother. And congratulations again on this book for all of y' all tuning in.

If you can see our faces and hear our voices, make sure that you hit the subscribe button for Cue Points. Share the show with your friends, family, colleagues. If you love the show, chances are they will love the show as well.

Visit our website@qpoints.com over there, you can check out the entire archive of Cue Points episodes, and there are a ton of them for you to check out. Visit our store@store.qpoints.com and if you want a little extra Cue Points content, you can visit Queue Points magazine, our digital publication.

John Morrison: 00:46:08

Where can you.

Jay Ray: 00:46:09

You get some content that's show related. But then we just got stuff over there that we just want to talk about and write about. So we do that over on Queue Points magazine. We appreciate y'. All.

We love y'. All.

Sir Daniel: 00:46:19

Absolutely. So, Jay Ray, what do I always say? In this life, you have an opportunity. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.

I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: 00:46:28

I'm Jay Ray, y'. All. That is John Morrison.

Sir Daniel: 00:46:31

That is John Morrison. And this is Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. We will see you on the next go round.

Jay Ray: 00:46:40

Peace. Peace, y'. All.